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Nathaniel C.





Joined: 26 Aug 2008

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 1:56 pm    Post subject: Fraudulent eBay posting? 1850 Staff/Field officers sword         Reply with quote

So, here's two listings with identical photos so one is clearly not done in good faith.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-CIVIL-WAR-FI...&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-CIVIL-WAR-HI...9#shpCntId

Is there any way to tell which is legitimate? The first has considerable feedback and the second not so much. I'm not sure if there's any way to tell which went up first, though obviously one has already ended.

I might as well state as full disclosure that I'm already financially invested in the first auction linked above. I didn't see the second auction until afterward and now I'm having some misgivings.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21167

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18095
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A good rule of thumb is that 99% of the antiques listed on ebay are fakes and the majority of the rest are illegally looted. So there is a pretty good chance that boith of them are fakes.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Nathaniel C.





Joined: 26 Aug 2008

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hrm,
Well I knew eBay was bad, but I didn't think it was that bad.
I know there are piles and piles of bad fakes out there.
I thought that it would be fairly difficult to make a good fake of this period saber since there are virtually no good replicas available. If you had the skill to make a good fake, why not just sell it for more as a high end replica?

I've personally seen two of these exact sabers at estate sales which appeared to be originals, so its entirely conceivable that they could end up on ebay. I'm well aware that anything from China is automatically crap, but that's also apparent from the photos.

Anyway, it would seem the proportion of fakes to real items sold on eBay would really depend on the period and item in question.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21167

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18095
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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Posts: 3,123

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The later the period and the cheaper the item, the less likely it is to be a fake.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,793

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Fraudulent eBay posting? 1850 Staff/Field officers sword         Reply with quote

Nathaniel C. wrote:
So, here's two listings with identical photos so one is clearly not done in good faith.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-CIVIL-WAR-FI...&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-CIVIL-WAR-HI...9#shpCntId

Is there any way to tell which is legitimate? The first has considerable feedback and the second not so much. I'm not sure if there's any way to tell which went up first, though obviously one has already ended.

I might as well state as full disclosure that I'm already financially invested in the first auction linked above. I didn't see the second auction until afterward and now I'm having some misgivings.


Contact the seller you bought from and point out the other auction. If/when there is no reply, contact Ebay.. If you do not receive the item as pictured, contact Ebay.Both locations listed as Florida.

Dan paints a fairly pessimistic outlook and perhaps that works for him. In this case, double listings, not the issue.

Cheers

GC
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Likes: 16 pages

Posts: 353

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
A good rule of thumb is that 99% of the antiques listed on ebay are fakes and the majority of the rest are illegally looted. So there is a pretty good chance that boith of them are fakes.


Pretty harsh statement, to my opinion. Of course there are tons of crap on ebay, but good, legit items as well. Know your field, do some homework, buy from reputable sellers as you can.

Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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Posts: 3,123

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Even the legit sellers can't demonstrate provenance for the vast majority of the items they sell. Ask yourself why would they be selling something on ebay? If the item was legitimate then they could make more money selling it through a proper auction house.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,793

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Even the legit sellers can't demonstrate provenance for the vast majority of the items they sell. Ask yourself why would they be selling something on ebay? If the item was legitimate then they could make more money selling it through a proper auction house.


Dealers and individuals use Ebay and other web auctions because of the exposure to the market and lesser fees than a big auction company. Then, add that a lot of arms auctions on Ebay from those large dealers and smaller sellers get their supply from other auctions. Why would they choose not to make a profit? As to most not having provenance, your sweeping generalization serves only your own viewpoint. Call up Harvey Withers, Michael D Long, Fagan Arms, and so, so many others and tell them they are full of crap and should only be selling to large auction companies. You have raised a couple of serious problems but your less than specific statements come across as either naive of the market or just plain silly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As to the original topic of this thread, I prefer to work with the systems instead of against them. "Borrowed" pictures and multiple listings can be a concern. Contact the seller of the auction you bid on and ask. Each and every Ebay auction has a contact link for asking questions. Each and every Ebay auction has links for reporting an auction.

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,793

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Incidentally, the sword is an 1850 foot officer sword, not the 1850 staff&field which has a larger basket/guard. Looks ok for what it is. Few scabbards survive. The grip looks nice.

Cheers

GC
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Nathaniel C.





Joined: 26 Aug 2008

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 6:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really? I thought it was the other way around. Obviously I'm not an expert but I could have sworn the the larger hilted version with the US cast into the hilt was the foot officers version. Of course I'm sure your right, I clearly have more reading to do.

The grip in particular was one of the things that attracted me to this specific sword, it is in rather nice condition. And pretty much all the ones that still have their scabbards are out of my price range.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21167

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18095
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,793

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr, 2015 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not to be confused with the 1860 staff&field, the epee like straight swords.

Harold Peterson's 1954 old testament is an inexpensive and decent start for the US models.
American Sword, 1775 to 1945
http://www.amazon.com/American-Sword-Harold-L...0960309411

There are various web based information sites and innumerable dealers
http://howardlanham.tripod.com/linkgr5/link203.html
http://howardlanham.tripod.com/link145.htm

Happy hunting

GC
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Nathaniel C.





Joined: 26 Aug 2008

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Thu 23 Apr, 2015 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hopefully, I'll have the sword in hand tomorrow. I'll report back, with photos if possible.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21167

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18095
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