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Sam Scelza




Location: USA
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2015 8:35 am    Post subject: Sword sized Rondel Dagger??         Reply with quote

Hi guys!

I recently took a trip over the pond to London and went to many museums to look at all the weapons, woohoo! But in going to the V&A museum I saw a painting from the 15th century I believe it was that depicted a guy holding a massively long Rondel Dagger. I attached the image for you all to see.

My question is, did some painter just make this up? It got me all excited because I love Rondels and I wanted to know if this has any real historical backing other than just one painting.



 Attachment: 329.15 KB
Large Rondel.jpg

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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
Likes: 31 pages

Posts: 650

PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey that's a nice one! Good find.

Seems like rondels could easily be this length. Nathan Robinson wrote a review of an Eric McHugh Rondel that is perhaps a shade smaller at 21" blade length. One big difference though is that the one Eric made has a trapezoidal blade and the one in your picture looks hollow ground diamond cross-section.

There is one art-historical reference in Nathan's feature review also. http://myArmoury.com/dagg_em_molrondel.html
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
Joined: 01 Jan 2011

Posts: 578

PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2015 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That looks almost like a Viking sword...

What is the context of the image, if I may inquire? Is the man holding it, perhaps, an elf or some such? :P

Seriously though. There is no reason it couldn't have existed, but such large disks on such a long blade would have been somewhat impractical as they would interfere with attempting to use it like a sword. I suspect it may have been exaggerated to some degree in order to stand out more prominently in the image.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,263

PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
What is the context of the image, if I may inquire?


Martyrdom of St. Ursula, the man with dagger represents a Hun.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18975/the-...er-of-the/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan P




Location: Massachusetts, USA
Joined: 28 Jun 2007

Posts: 208

PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My speculation is that the 1492 painting is basically Christian propaganda intended to both inflame and capitalize off, anti-Turkish prejudices. For example, note Ursula's companion, in the center as an allegory to Christ, dying on a prominently cruciform weapon piercing his side. The Turk on the far right holding the 'rondel-sword', therefore, may have been given a non-cruciform weapon to both emphasize his status as a heathen, and to avoid introducing commonality and therefore deemphasizing the central metaphor of the painting (note the kneeling Turk on the left as well, he's been given a sort of scimitar or falchion).

I might be completely wrong, if someone with a better education would like to offer their interpretation I would like to read it.
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Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2015 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To me, this looks more like a baselard than a rondel, of which there are many surviving examples this long and longer. The hilt components don't look at all round and it's hard to tell what's going on with the grip since it is mostly covered by the man's hand. That said, there are long rondels. I'm not sure I have seen any this long but there are some that could be categorized as swords, albeit shorter swords... I've attached a pic of some long rondels and of a baselard....I think it's more likely that this is a representation of a baselard type sword than of a super long rondel.


 Attachment: 19.8 KB
Basilard-500.jpg


 Attachment: 16.69 KB
big rondels.jpg

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