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Anita Johnson




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 6:19 pm    Post subject: Need Information On This Sword         Reply with quote

Hello and thanks in advance for your help. This sword is in really rough shape, but I promised my sister I would try to find out how old it is and what type of sword it is. This sword belonged to her grandfather and she has no idea where he got it. The sword has been in her side of the family for many, many years. It is really rusted and worn. I had to scrap with a razor blade to find the print on the blade. The print on the blade reads:
Coulaux & C
G
Klingenthal
The letters on the scabbage are large and easy to read. The handle is made of some type of thin rope. I have other pictures if needed. Any help would be greatly appreciated..........thanks again!


Also interested in knowing what can be used to clean it up, if that's possible.



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It's still a great day!
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 1,493

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 10:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a fraternal sword. The Internet tells me that "K of D" might be the Knights of Dunamis, which is/was part of the Eagle Scouts. For more, see http://www.nesa.org/history.html

If it's Knights of Dunamis, then mid-20th century.

There some books devoted to fraternal swords, notably http://myArmoury.com/books/item.1931464383.html (but there are some others). If Knights of Dunamis isn't likely, this might be a good book to try.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2015 12:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are no swords associated with the scouts nor the Knights of Dunamis that I have ever seen from my scouting years during the 1960s in the US.. This sword is not shown in the fraternal sword bible linked and I see no mention of the scouts there either.. It is a fine book, including a forward of disclaimer, even with the dozens of examples from the Kaplan and Marino collections.

The blade marking would lead to a French flavor, as the blade maker is well known.
http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/klingenthal.htm
http://www.klingenthal.fr/anglais_2_a.htm
http://klingenthal.chez.com/marquages_coulaux.htm

Keep in mind that academic swords are quite common in Europe, along with a whole other gaggle of fraternal swords.

Cheers

GC
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Brian Rognholt




Location: Rochester MN
Joined: 11 Mar 2016

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri 11 Mar, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject: Dunamis Pythian connection         Reply with quote

Has this piece ever been nailed down? I now have a saber form of this identically badged straight blade. It is for the life of me a Pythian grip with Uniformed Rank marks AND K of D (Dunamis?). Although the Scouts had no official swords it is my belief that because of the strong association the Knights of Pythias have with BSA a lodge or the KoP had a small run of these made.


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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is very possible that the sword and scabbard of the original post do not belong together..

The UR on your hilt does look like it must be for the Uniform Rank of the Knights Pythias, I suppose I could look at the current bible again, as I might have missed the scabbard. I think we need to better figure out the acronym in association with the Knights of Pythias.

I would say it is a stretch to define the Pythians as a primary association with scouting or I would surely have heard of it. Scouting meetings were found in many church buildings and no doubt auditoriums of many kinds. Pythians do sponsor the program but look at all that do.
http://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/522-925_wb.pdf

Cheers

GC


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Sat 12 Mar, 2016 6:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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Greg Ballantyne




Location: Maryland USA
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree Glen - the scabbard appears to be 3" to 4" short for the blade
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

See Damon and Pythias. I'll poke around a bit more.

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 7:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
The Knights of Pythias also has a side degree, the Dramatic Order of the Knights of Khorassan,[7] which itself has a female auxiliary, the Nomads of Avrudaka.[8] Finally, members who have obtained the Knight Degree may join the Uniformed Rank, which participated in parades and other processions.[7] Swords owned by a member of the Uniformed Rank might be inscribed with the acronym, "UR", a dove, or a lily. (The Uniformed Rank was banned in the organization in the 1950s.)[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Pythias

wow, banned Wink Wierd. More as I find it.

Cheers

GC
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Brian Rognholt




Location: Rochester MN
Joined: 11 Mar 2016

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 7:53 am    Post subject: KD and UR         Reply with quote

Thank you very much! The KD and UR match much better with the Khorassan description. The scouting connection doesn't match for the reasons cited and I frankly was grasping at straws. The piece I have is matched to it's scabbard just so there is no confusion with the initial piece.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The H PH on the scabbard are still kicking my butt. An elder Pythian might have a clue.

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okeedokely Happy


Knights of Damon

Had their own Uniform rank. Decorated with UR and a rose. I would suggest this complete set was for a mounted officer, rather than the more militia type example shown in Kaplan, Marino and Hamilton's book. Also has the letters PHH on this example upon three oval tablets.

Not directly Pythian but related? Listed in the old testament (Stevens) as miscellaneous in 1907. Noted in southern newspapers.



Dramatic Order Knights of Korassan DOKK or DOKKIES, similar to AAONMS, founded within the Pythians but their regalia swords of scimitar form.

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/eaa_B0036/

Looks like another benevolent pension group.

https://casetext.com/case/drakeford-v-knights-of-damon

Cheers

GC
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Brian Rognholt




Location: Rochester MN
Joined: 11 Mar 2016

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Outstanding! Thanks for the assist! I do metal restorations and this client is a local antique dealer whom I would like to have accurate information. The auction from which it was purchased had the Boy Scout theory but the data here is much more logical and fits the timeline.
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Anita Johnson




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject: Thanks!!         Reply with quote

Thank you all for your replies on this sword. Unfortunately I cannot make heads nor tails of any of it. I still have the sword in my possession and just recently wondered if anything had been found on it. With so many opinions, what is the actual consensus on this item? My sister asks about it from time to time and I know she's tired of hearing me say IDK, lol Thank you all so much for your diligent work. I know I'm not the only one interested in this piece, but on behalf of both of us again..............thanks!
It's still a great day!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,822

PostPosted: Sat 12 Mar, 2016 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks!!         Reply with quote

Anita Johnson wrote:
Thank you all for your replies on this sword. Unfortunately I cannot make heads nor tails of any of it. I still have the sword in my possession and just recently wondered if anything had been found on it. With so many opinions, what is the actual consensus on this item? My sister asks about it from time to time and I know she's tired of hearing me say IDK, lol Thank you all so much for your diligent work. I know I'm not the only one interested in this piece, but on behalf of both of us again..............thanks!


Well, we have determined the scabbard belongs to a Knight of Damon sword and the French sword has a clearly marked maker's name. They were married at some point in time but they are two separate origins and purpose. You could try posting the sword by itself at

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/

or

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay...word-Forum

There you would have more eyes on it for comment.

Cheers

GC
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Anita Johnson




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2016 7:24 pm    Post subject: Thanks!         Reply with quote

Thanks Glen I may try that.
It's still a great day!
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