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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 1:50 am    Post subject: need help         Reply with quote

Hi, google search bring me to you, spending hours ans hours of search... excuse my language i am french, i have a sword from my deceased father i can't explained what i have in my hand, it should be manufactured in england ("By the appointment to the King - Hamburger Rogers & Co - 30 King St Covent Garden London" "1903") but there is also french text "chasseur alpins" and "offert par le colonel ..."

so i am here to know more about this sword if someone can help me, some photos at the bottoms thank you a lot

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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 2:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

sorry for the wrong place of the post ...
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The sword is a British Pattern 1897 Infantry Officer's Sword. I know of some that were made for either France or Belgium. I can look into that for you when I get home. Very nice sword!

All the best,
Jonathan
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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2015 2:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank you for the reply, i really enjoy if you can tell me more about this sword, on another french forum we are just short of ideas ... we are not sure about the origin of manufacture, some say the star with the"PROVE" gold insert is from wilkinson factory but Hamburger Rogers & Co is written at the base of the blade. Another thing, Why Alpine Hunters of the French army in 1903 could receive a sword as a present from a British manufacture from a (french??) Colonel, with writings in french AND in English ?

Trying to "decode" the signature of the colonel could be a really good thing to know the origin, as looking for the serial number on the blade.

Do you know how to restore and clean the guard, and what is the material used for the guard and the hilt ?
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2015 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is what I was thinking of yesterday:

http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/bl-gb1915.htm

But clearly it is different from your sword. Could you please post a photo of the guard so I can see the cypher (initials) on the guard?
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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2015 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote



not the same as you but it is approaching .. i think ... from a "neophite" !!
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David Cooper




Location: UK
Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2015 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morardet
Hamburger Rogers did not make swords but were retailers and military outfitters. I believe they were supplied by Mole and by Wilkinsons at various times. I cannot tell from your pictures but is there a cypher or crest on the front of the guard?

The journey not the destination
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think it is a Wilkinson serial number as it is far too high for 1903. Mole serial numbers usually started with an M. That doesn't mean neither company made the sword, just that the serial number is not one of theirs. It could be a Pillin serial number--the P on the proof disc is one clue, and the serial number range is about right for the time period (based on info from OldSwords.com).

The VR cypher on the guard is for Victoria Regina (Queen Victoria), which is interesting since the sword was clearly intended for a French recipient. I don't really have an explanation for this sword except that it was a presentation sword of some kind. Perhaps H.L. was the owner of the sword?
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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really thank you.

I see that in the end the analysis of this sword almost raises more questions that it gives us answers ...

Can we be 100% sure that this sword is from British manufacture (VR on the guard?)? Is it from good manufacturing?

Do you think that this sword is interesting? very interesting? Rare?

If someone well know history of the beginning 1900, what could be the circumstances for a British manufactured sword to be a gift, a present or a reward from a (British????) Colonel to a french Alpine Hunter. What could be the number "24" on the blade ?

Can you give me some advice to clean and restore the guard (what is the material used?)? Should i go ask a professional to restore it?
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hamburger Rogers & Co. were a high end retailer, so the sword is of very good quality. The Pattern 1897 is one of the most common British officers' swords, but Victorian examples are more rare, and examples made for officers of other countries are exceedingly rare. I would be extremely proud and excited if I owned that sword!

I believe the 24 refers to the 24th battalion: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/24e_bataillon_de_chasseurs_alpins

If you could find regimental records for the 24th battalion around 1903, you would want to see if you could find any officers with the initials "H.L.". That would reveal more of the sword's history and possibly help us understand why a French officer would have been given a British sword.

Google Books has been of great help to me in researching British military history, and finding individual officers and their service records. Perhaps they also have a number of French language resources online, as well?

The hilt is nickel plated, or would have been originally. It is hard to tell from your photos how much of the plating is still intact. Here is an excellent article on sword conservation, which you can apply to your sword:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/content.php?...ly-18-2001

Here is one of my P1897s, which still has most of its nickel plating:



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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the possible British connection--the Chasseurs Aplins served as a guard of honor for Queen Victoria when she visited Cimiez. (click on "download" to view attachment)


 Attachment: 307.66 KB
[ Download ]
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And part 2:


 Attachment: 94.44 KB
Chasseurs Alpins 2-2.jpg

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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you would like to see larger images of this article, I would be happy to email them to you. Just send me a private message with your email address.

You may also want to contact this website for assistance: http://www.alpins.fr/

Jonathan
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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

really thank you i took contact today with an historic researcher of alpin hunter in france i hope it will take me to good results!! thank you for your research, i'll come back to you soon!!
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is my pleasure! I enjoyed learning something new. I look forward to hearing back from you!

Jonathan
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Mon 16 Mar, 2015 5:35 am    Post subject: Help identify this sword         Reply with quote

I never heard of Queen Victoria's French guards of honour being issued with British swords instead of locally-made ones.
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”

- Marcus Aurelius
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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 16 Mar, 2015 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Help identify this sword         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
I never heard of Queen Victoria's French guards of honour being issued with British swords instead of locally-made ones.


Are you saying i am telling lies or something like that ? Eek! it doesn't touch me, nevermind ... Worried
Read all posts we are on the way that it is probably a present, not a ceremonial sword
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Mon 16 Mar, 2015 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To clarify a few things--the Chasseurs Alpins were French soldiers assigned by the French government as a guard of honor to Queen Victoria while on holiday on the French Riviera. This connection between the Chasseurs Alpins and Great Britain might explain why a British sword was presented to one of the officers. In general, officers were responsible for buying their own swords, and as Morardet Olivier pointed out, it was a presentation sword from one person to another and therefore did not need to conform to any sort of regulations.

I am eager to see what more we can learn about this rare and interesting sword!
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Morardet Olivier




Location: France
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 16 Mar, 2015 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Hopkins wrote:

I am eager to see what more we can learn about this rare and interesting sword!


I sent mail to historic researcher of alpine hunter and to postermaster of alpine.fr, wait & see Big Grin
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