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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Mon 09 Mar, 2015 6:42 pm    Post subject: quilted vs glued linen..         Reply with quote

Reading through dans book. He mentions a test done against glued layered linen. And alan williams test against quited linen.

Ill accept that glued linen is at best uncommon and at worse completely nonexistant.

however what I wonder is. A lot of pwoplw have tried glued linen and it is agreed to be for lack of a better term. Rock solid. (Looking up close at the armour worn by the sydney ancients springs to mind immediately)

How does quilted vs glued stand up in terms of penetration resistance. Durabilityboth against sustained attack or against the elements?... is it also possible to quilt linen. Then glue it? Does the hardening by glue make it less effective somehow?

also im not sure I properly understood the definition of quilted textiles since. I keep thinking of quiting as in the way doonas are made l. With patches of cloth sewn together. And thats the image that pops into people heads when I describe that linen was quilted...
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 494

PostPosted: Mon 09 Mar, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: quilted vs glued linen..         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
Reading through dans book. He mentions a test done against glued layered linen. And alan williams test against quited linen.

Ill accept that glued linen is at best uncommon and at worse completely nonexistant.

however what I wonder is. A lot of pwoplw have tried glued linen and it is agreed to be for lack of a better term. Rock solid. (Looking up close at the armour worn by the sydney ancients springs to mind immediately)

How does quilted vs glued stand up in terms of penetration resistance. Durabilityboth against sustained attack or against the elements?... is it also possible to quilt linen. Then glue it? Does the hardening by glue make it less effective somehow?

also im not sure I properly understood the definition of quilted textiles since. I keep thinking of quiting as in the way doonas are made l. With patches of cloth sewn together. And thats the image that pops into people heads when I describe that linen was quilted...

Againist the elements, I would bet on quilted linen, because of what I've understood of Dark Age ( might not be applicable here) it was often made of cheese, cheese can melt, get of less consistent, that modern glues can, the durability depends on the tighteness of the weaving, obvious a very loose weave against a very even, thoroughly pressed modern glued linen allowed stand up to punishment, but a tightly woven quilted linen garment against a glued garment is, as far as I know (which isn't saying much) still debatable. Also, I don't think it was small pieces of cloth sew together, but relatively large (not by todays standards) of clothes sew together is multiple layers quilteds together into single garment.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 4:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On a purely personal note, I'm not aware of a single 'period' glue suitable for glueing linen so it remains flexible that isn't moisture susceptible and made of something that smells pretty awful. So one shower and your army will be falling apart, sticky and stinky.

Some people might like that sort of thing but for me I'm with the quilters!

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: quilted vs glued linen..         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
also im not sure I properly understood the definition of quilted textiles since. I keep thinking of quiting as in the way doonas are made l. With patches of cloth sewn together. And thats the image that pops into people heads when I describe that linen was quilted...

Look at the arm guards on good quality kendo armour.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 5:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very good analogy Dan. And look how well they work!
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, for starters, there's no reason to consider how to glue linen or what to use, because there is simply no reason to suspect that it was ever done. So why waste the brain time?

And right, "quilted" is not "patchwork". For a quilted linen cuirass you just cut the whole shape of the cuirass out of one piece of linen, then do that 10 or 15 more times and stack up the layers. Quilting is just stitching that runs across the whole thing to hold all the layers together without shifting. There are garments in Greek artwork that are shaped like a sleeveless tunic and have multiple rows of zig-zag decoration. They are often worn over a regular tunic (chiton). I suspect these are layered linen, and that the zig-zags are quilting. There are also depictions of tube-and-yoke cuirasses that show vertical lines or a diagonal grid pattern, which could be quilting. Dan always points out that close-spaced vertical rows of quilting makes the completed item quite stiff, and that the protection seems to be better with more tightly-space quilting. I'm not sure the ancient Greeks did scientific tests along those lines (a battlefield is Darwinian, but hardly scientific!), so variations in quilting are no real surprise.

Oh, casein glue is made from milk, specifically milk protein, not actually from cheese. I think I used to know something about how it stands up to heat and wet, but I don't remember.... The modern casein/milk paints that many of us use for painting shields and such include lime, so they are more like colored white wash, and NOTHING will make that run once it has cured. (Including modern paint strippers!) There are other kinds of glue, hide glue for instance, but no, I don't think any ancient glues are impervious to heat and water. But like I said, why worry about it?

Matthew
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A lot of people get the casein and cheese/lime glues muddled up. It all has milk as its source after all, casein has its etymological base in the latin for cheese and when making it from milk its a similar process to making cheese.

You can make glue from the casein in milk, and you can make it from cheese. 2 slightly different things but it all has a casein base.

The cheese/lime glue is awesome for various wooden applications and having studied many panel paintings and furniture from 13th cent on, its usually in better condition than the wood.

There, more brain power than needed. But it was never slapped on linen to make armour...

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Mark! A sticky situation, granted...

Matthew
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Well, for starters, there's no reason to consider how to glue linen or what to use, because there is simply no reason to suspect that it was ever done. So why waste the brain time?

And right, "quilted" is not "patchwork". For a quilted linen cuirass you just cut the whole shape of the cuirass out of one piece of linen, then do that 10 or 15 more times and stack up the layers. Quilting is just stitching that runs across the whole thing to hold all the layers together without shifting. There are garments in Greek artwork that are shaped like a sleeveless tunic and have multiple rows of zig-zag decoration. They are often worn over a regular tunic (chiton). I suspect these are layered linen, and that the zig-zags are quilting. There are also depictions of tube-and-yoke cuirasses that show vertical lines or a diagonal grid pattern, which could be quilting. Dan always points out that close-spaced vertical rows of quilting makes the completed item quite stiff, and that the protection seems to be better with more tightly-space quilting. I'm not sure the ancient Greeks did scientific tests along those lines (a battlefield is Darwinian, but hardly scientific!), so variations in quilting are no real surprise.

Oh, casein glue is made from milk, specifically milk protein, not actually from cheese. I think I used to know something about how it stands up to heat and wet, but I don't remember.... The modern casein/milk paints that many of us use for painting shields and such include lime, so they are more like colored white wash, and NOTHING will make that run once it has cured. (Including modern paint strippers!) There are other kinds of glue, hide glue for instance, but no, I don't think any ancient glues are impervious to heat and water. But like I said, why worry about it?

Matthew

ah. Thats massively helpful. H as that lime based caesin glue been tested as linothirax bondi g material. If that cured state seems impervious to run colours I wonder how well its help fabric hold together

ah so I see that quilting is like. Layering some felt and cloth and simply running it under the sewing machine again and again in parralel rows. Or hand stitching.

Yes I do believe I did that with some layers kf felt

I do then wonder how reenactor inothorax can be so. Well... stiff. I take it that has a LOT to do on the part of modern tlues?
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 4:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And I suppose I 'waste brain time' because im peskily curious that way. Razz
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
H as that lime based caesin glue been tested as linothirax bondi g material. If that cured state seems impervious to run colours I wonder how well its help fabric hold together


The lime-based product is made as paint, not glue. Might work as glue for something like this, but I don't know of anyone who has tried it. It doesn't run or wash out because it's basically thin concrete!

Quote:
I do then wonder how reenactor inothorax can be so. Well... stiff. I take it that has a LOT to do on the part of modern tlues?


So far, everyone has been using glue, and most probably still are. Most any ancient or modern glue will make layered linen stiff, it's pretty much unavoidable. It's a heck of a lot less effort and mess just to use leather, which is what *should* be used for the typical hoplite of the Persian or Peloponnesian Wars.

Quote:
And I suppose I 'waste brain time' because im peskily curious that way. Razz


Ha, part of your charm!

Matthew
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar, 2015 2:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suppose i should clarify that when I said you can make glue using milk I probably meant 'something sticky, but not that sticky'. I doubt you could make linen armour with it, even if that ever existed. It sticks to surfaces as a carrier for pigment so paint. Cheese/lime glue on the other hand is a fantastic glue for joinery.

If I were making linen armour (see comment above about it ever existing...) my choices would be starch based, like a flour and water paste, resin based, using many of the vegetable rums and resins you get in that region, or hoof and hide. None of those provide any resistance from moisture and in many cases would attract all sorts of interested parties. A garment made from linen and animal size glue would look like a huge tasty snack to most rodents.

You could waterproof and kind of pest proof it using a varnish which would be a turpentine and resin mix, then you would have a garment that was incredibly=bly stiff and inflexible.

So the practicalities of making such a garment don't really add up. Proud to be a quilter.....

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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