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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2015 12:46 pm    Post subject: Dagger/knives and sword combinations.         Reply with quote

Hello fellow members,

I have an increasing interest in knives and daggers. Especially when they were paired or carried with swords.

Can you help me establish a nice list of combinations that were often seen throughout history? Any region or period will do.

Just to be clear: I am looking for combinations like rapier and parrying dagger. Longsword and rondel dagger. Viking sword and seax. Basically any type knife/dagger that would serve as a tried and true back up to a any type of sword, as long as they fit together in time, place and context.

Anything pre medieval and/or asian would be great, since I don't know much about either.

Pictures are very welcome too.

Thanks in advance!

Sir Dreamin'
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roman Gladius and Pugio.

Scottish Basket-hilt Claymore and Dirk.

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some classic combinations:

Cossacks: shashka and kindjal

Various Arab groups: saif and jambiya

Japanese: tachi and tanto (the standard combination before the katana became popular)

Batak: sword and dagger http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Batak_...5_edit.jpg

India: tulwar and katar (unlike the other combinations, these might even be used at the same time)

And don't forget Filipino espada y daga, a standard arnis/kali/escrima combination, used as a pair.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not that it was a particularly historical pairing as such, but the Langes Messer + Bauernwehr (especially shoved into a long, turned down boot, as in das Mittelalterlisches Hausbuch von Schloss Wolfegg) combination is über sexy.

I have a Messer and Bauernwehr both inspired by the same historical piece, but scaled to their respectful sizes, and the two of them together are very hot.

Just sayin'. Happy

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2015 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Type XV or XVII sword with a rondel dagger for those nooks and crannies in plate armor
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Pieter B.





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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Not that it was a particularly historical pairing as such, but the Langes Messer + Bauernwehr (especially shoved into a long, turned down boot, as in das Mittelalterlisches Hausbuch von Schloss Wolfegg) combination is über sexy.

I have a Messer and Bauernwehr both inspired by the same historical piece, but scaled to their respectful sizes, and the two of them together are very hot.

Just sayin'. Happy


That's strictly a sword right? Another combination that was probably seen involves a flail or pitchfork with a bauernwehr.



At least that is how I imagine the German Peasant war peasants were equipped in the beginning.


PS,

While we are at it, perhaps someone could positively identify this combination as one of a messer and bauernwehr. Although the knife looks a bit like a baselard type thing.

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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 4:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

gernamic swords, ranging from late roman spatha to early medieval type X swords, saxon, viking etc, would also likely be carried alongside some sort of seax, be it a modest dagger sized scramasax or a langsax that functions like a short sword
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure I'm understanding the question. Most cultures had longer blades and shorter ones, but they were not always carried together, nor were they meant to be a "set" or "combination". Just options that might or might not be carried by the same man.

Certainly the Roman gladius and pugio were never intended as a "set". They were always constructed, decorated, and suspended in different ways, and were not used simultaneously. Sure, the dagger could be a backup if the sword was lost, but that was a rare occurrance at best. And there were troops who carried only one or the other.

That said, daggers were very popular in the late Bronze Age Villanovan culture in Italy. It's not uncommon to find a grave with both a sword and a dagger, though again they aren't really made to *match*, exactly. Most of the blades are bronze, but sometimes one or the other will be iron, a neat insight to the dawn of the Iron Age. Here, near the bottom of my Romulus page:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/Romulus.html

Matthew
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Rim Andries




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
I'm not sure I'm understanding the question. Most cultures had longer blades and shorter ones, but they were not always carried together, nor were they meant to be a "set" or "combination". Just options that might or might not be carried by the same man.

Certainly the Roman gladius and pugio were never intended as a "set". They were always constructed, decorated, and suspended in different ways, and were not used simultaneously. Sure, the dagger could be a backup if the sword was lost, but that was a rare occurrance at best. And there were troops who carried only one or the other.

That said, daggers were very popular in the late Bronze Age Villanovan culture in Italy. It's not uncommon to find a grave with both a sword and a dagger, though again they aren't really made to *match*, exactly. Most of the blades are bronze, but sometimes one or the other will be iron, a neat insight to the dawn of the Iron Age. Here, near the bottom of my Romulus page:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/Romulus.html

Matthew


Your questioning of the question is at the heart of the problem I suppose.

Whether a sword and dagger were just carried together, were intended as a set or were indeed used in a type of dual wielding, can be hard to determine. Not to mention they will all provide a different outcome in answering the question. I guess I am looking mostly for the last two options, but if I can not get those, the first one will do. Under the condition that it was prominent in artwork and literature.

Thanks for joining the conversation.

And oh yeah... Katana and tanto! Keeping it eastern: does anybody know about Indian, Mongolian and Chinese dagger and sword combinations?

As well as ancient greek and egyptian?

How about the cutlass and the post medieval/ "modern" european sabre? Could you pair it with the bayonet? Or the bowie knife perhaps? Or am I talking nonsense here?

Sir Dreamin'


Last edited by Rim Andries on Fri 27 Feb, 2015 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rim Andries




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Not that it was a particularly historical pairing as such, but the Langes Messer + Bauernwehr (especially shoved into a long, turned down boot, as in das Mittelalterlisches Hausbuch von Schloss Wolfegg) combination is über sexy.

I have a Messer and Bauernwehr both inspired by the same historical piece, but scaled to their respectful sizes, and the two of them together are very hot.

Just sayin'. Happy


Absolutely! I find them to be the single most sexy combo out there. The set Nathan Robinson has in his collection makes me green with envy to this very day.

Do you have a picture of your set by any chance? I would love to see it!

Sir Dreamin'
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Wilson wrote:
Roman Gladius and Pugio.


EDIT: Sorry, saw it had already been answered above.

I don't think this was ever an intended weapon combination.
The roman Pugio was either a high officer weapon, so it was all about the status of having one in your belt. It was also a weapon a senator could carry around concealed as a city self defense weapon.

If carried by lower level soldiers it was likely a reserve weapon. The combination for the soldier was gladius and shield. If the gladius broke, then you would have the pugio as reserve.
I haven't heard off any use of gladius and pugio in combination (though off course it is possible it did happen if the shield broke); I just don't think it was ever the intention to be used as such.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rim Andries wrote:
Your questioning of the question is at the heart of the problem I suppose.


Okay, gotcha!

Quote:
As well as ancient greek and egyptian?


Not likely. Again, there are examples of Greek daggers, though many could simply be regarded as short swords. There is no evidence that I've ever seen of Greeks wearing a sword and dagger at the same time. The sword was simply a backup to the spear.

I don't know Egypt as well, but I still think it's going to be kind of fuzzy. You probably won't find any "combinations" there at all.

Quote:
How about the cutlass and the post medieval/ "modern" european sabre? Could you pair it with the bayonet? Or the bowie knife perhaps? Or am I talking nonsense here?


Yeah, a little bit, ha! The cutlass was more often combined with a pistol (which could be specially made for left-hand use). Bayonets were strictly for use on a musket or rifle--well, okay, more often as a roasting spit, candle holder, tent stake, etc. There were troops in the 17th and 18th century who carried both bayonet and sword, but really the whole purpose of the bayonet was to make the sword irrelevant (by turning the musket into a spear). (Or at least to make pikemen irrelevant!) By the American Revolution, common infantry were getting rid of swords as fast as they could.

Matthew
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J. Nicolaysen




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2015 9:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From my scanty and initial research of Landsknechts, it seems like they are often depicted with a few weapons, sometimes a katzbalger and a dagger or so forth. Also the Swiss Reislaufer. Arms and Armor makes a sweet reislaufer type sword if you haven't seen it yet: http://armor.com/limitededition.html (their katzbalger set is nice too)

Quote:
And oh yeah... Katana and tanto!


Like Timo said, Tachi and tanto seem to be more prevalent pairing and earlier besides for sure. Wakizashi and katana are later, although many ornate and nice tantos are from the later times.
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Philip Dyer





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PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb, 2015 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Nicolaysen wrote:
From my scanty and initial research of Landsknechts, it seems like they are often depicted with a few weapons, sometimes a katzbalger and a dagger or so forth. Also the Swiss Reislaufer. Arms and Armor makes a sweet reislaufer type sword if you haven't seen it yet: http://armor.com/limitededition.html (their katzbalger set is nice too)

Quote:
And oh yeah... Katana and tanto!


Like Timo said, Tachi and tanto seem to be more prevalent pairing and earlier besides for sure. Wakizashi and katana are later, although many ornate and nice tantos are from the later times.

Cool link, the Swiss sword, for some reason, reminds me of a spatha.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While we're at it ... just been browsing a lot of Landesknecht images ... lots of Zweihander + Katzbalger, or Zweihander + Bauernwehr / Schweizerdegen combinations in there ...

So good to see paired items that do not have similar form or aesthetics, but fit within a wider aesthetic, and with clearly different purposes.

Rim Andries wrote:
Do you have a picture of your set by any chance? I would love to see it!


Hi Rim,

Unfortunately, I don't have an image of both together. Messer was by Ollin, and Bauernwehr by Tod. Both are based on one sold from the Princely Collection of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vaduz, at Christies, London, on November 20, 1991 (lot 62), purchased by Michael 'Matchlock' on Vikingsword.

Amazing original, and great reproductions.



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Ollin Messer

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Tod's Stuff bauernwehr.jpg
Tod Bauernwehr

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Original Schloss Vaduz Bauernwehr ...

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Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2015 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I researched this very question for the 12th and 13th C

Found no images in the illuminated manuscrips showing that a knife was carried along with a sword during the 12th C.

Similar lack of findings for 13th C, though the rare effigy shows a dagger carried on the belt (but there is no sword).
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