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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 2:15 pm    Post subject: 3D printed migration period sword hilt         Reply with quote

http://www.cnet.com/news/3d-printing-produces...ury-sword/

Very interesting news. I wonder how much cleaning up the components required after printing. It seems to have produced a better result than the castings we normally see. Perhaps this could be done at an intermediate cost between that of casting and hand carving.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The maker, Nils Anderssen is a member here and posted recently about a previous 3-D work, his Suontaka sword, http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=291...mp;start=0

I would like to hear from him more about this one. Did he do the blade also, only the fittings, etc. The article makes it sound like the fittings only. Very impressive work.

I think it is very good of the museum to have a "hands on" replica there, but I suppose I would prefer a traditionally made blade. But the techniques and knowledge to make such a good replica is very impressive and the results are very well done.
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Mike Jia
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Location: Canberra
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 3D printed migration period sword hilt         Reply with quote

Nils Andersson is certainly a very talented 3d designer! I'd say I'm somewhat experienced at 3d design and I would balk at the task of modelling something so complex.

Ian Hutchison wrote:
http://www.cnet.com/news/3d-printing-produces...ury-sword/

Very interesting news. I wonder how much cleaning up the components required after printing. It seems to have produced a better result than the castings we normally see. Perhaps this could be done at an intermediate cost between that of casting and hand carving.


From Nils' suontaka post, it looks like he's using shapeways to print the models. Shapeways' polishing services are good; the 3d printed "wave" effects are really quite faint, and only noticeable on smooth surfaces. I imagine a piece like this with so many facets would not have required too much hand labour to clean it up.
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 7:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I'm reading correctly, the process of creating this new hilt was different from that used to create the Suontaka hilt. The Suontaka hilt was cast based on a 3d printed model. This new hilt was directly printed in bronze rather than cast.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not quite sure how I feel about that. That Mr. Anderssen has a talent is unquestionable, and that his talent could be used to mass produce things most of us could never own is equally unquestionable. Even if he doesn't do it someone else will. Are we seeing the end of the craftsman in favor of the programmer / designer? Or are we just seeing the craftsman take to a new medium? Or am I just being too pensive and don't understand enough about the process to know what I'm talking about? Happy
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Ralph Grinly





Joined: 19 Jan 2011

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
I am not quite sure how I feel about that. That Mr. Anderssen has a talent is unquestionable, and that his talent could be used to mass produce things most of us could never own is equally unquestionable. Even if he doesn't do it someone else will. Are we seeing the end of the craftsman in favor of the programmer / designer? Or are we just seeing the craftsman take to a new medium? Or am I just being too pensive and don't understand enough about the process to know what I'm talking about? Happy


Regardless of the medium - it will always take an artist/craftsman to produce top quality work. Whether or not that artist's work can be mass-reproduced at a later stage..that's another matter entirely
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Mike Jia
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Location: Canberra
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 1:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian Hutchison wrote:
If I'm reading correctly, the process of creating this new hilt was different from that used to create the Suontaka hilt. The Suontaka hilt was cast based on a 3d printed model. This new hilt was directly printed in bronze rather than cast.


Unless the piece was cut using CNC out of a solid block of bronze, the hilt would have been cast. I don't believe it's possible to directly print in bronze (although there is a type of filament that contains 80% bronze dust by weight). Even the pieces shapeways offers in bronze are printed in wax first, and then cast at a foundry.

EDIT: They are indeed printed in wax and then cast.
http://i.materialise.com/materials/bronze


Last edited by Mike Jia on Fri 20 Feb, 2015 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Jia
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 1:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ralph Grinly wrote:
Russ Ellis wrote:
I am not quite sure how I feel about that. That Mr. Anderssen has a talent is unquestionable, and that his talent could be used to mass produce things most of us could never own is equally unquestionable. Even if he doesn't do it someone else will. Are we seeing the end of the craftsman in favor of the programmer / designer? Or are we just seeing the craftsman take to a new medium? Or am I just being too pensive and don't understand enough about the process to know what I'm talking about? Happy


Regardless of the medium - it will always take an artist/craftsman to produce top quality work. Whether or not that artist's work can be mass-reproduced at a later stage..that's another matter entirely


There is certainly a very interesting discussion to be had here. Happy We live in a day and age where everything can be converted and stored digitally for posterity. I personally think this is great for craftsmen who can take advantage of technology to make their work affordable to a larger audience. I'm sure the art of carving by hand will still persist, after all people still pay for hand painted portraits in a world where anyone can take a photograph.
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
I am not quite sure how I feel about that. That Mr. Anderssen has a talent is unquestionable, and that his talent could be used to mass produce things most of us could never own is equally unquestionable. Even if he doesn't do it someone else will. Are we seeing the end of the craftsman in favor of the programmer / designer? Or are we just seeing the craftsman take to a new medium? Or am I just being too pensive and don't understand enough about the process to know what I'm talking about? Happy


Interesting questions. I don't think that there is any particular attribute of 3D printing that makes it more suitable for mass production than previous technologies - it is intended for prototyping, not production work - which means 3D printing isn't any more likely to flood the market with repros than previous technologies.

In the 3D printing process, a digital model is painstakingly modeled, and I cannot imagine that it takes any less time than modelling in wax. The digital model is then printed in a wax-like resin, and invested for casting, just like a hand-made model would be. The printing of multiple waxes from the same digital model isn't a practical method of mass-production - making moulds to cast new waxes is faster and cheaper, and can be done just as easily with traditionally modeled waxes as 3D printed ones.

So, I am not seeing anything ground-shaking happening in the world of historical repros because of 3D printing, unless they are printed from scans and the laborious modelling process is side-stepped. We just have a new technique that has bridged a gap, allowing digital talent into the world of the concrete. I just hope that we don't end up losing traditional skills altogether, because the history of skills behind the objects we admire has a value of its own, if a less tangible one.

-Jeffrey Hildebrandt

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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

philosophical bs not useful.

Last edited by J. Nicolaysen on Fri 20 Feb, 2015 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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T. Kew




Location: Cambridge, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This thread on Bladesmith's Forum by Nils may be of interest to those interested in the process and work that went into this particular replica.

From a quick read, it looks like there was a different kind of extensive skilled labour, but not necessarily a much simpler method. The hand modelling step would have taken a rather long time, and there was a lot of finishing required afterwards as well.
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:
This thread on Bladesmith's Forum by Nils may be of interest to those interested in the process and work that went into this particular replica.

From a quick read, it looks like there was a different kind of extensive skilled labour, but not necessarily a much simpler method. The hand modelling step would have taken a rather long time, and there was a lot of finishing required afterwards as well.


Thanks for the heads up T., interesting read!

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Sat 21 Feb, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Amazing work, which ever way you look at it..also a very interesting discussion topic and very valid points raised so far.

When undertaking a replica project, a craftsman may consider using a wide array of techniques, or combine techniques, and will settle for what he is most comfortable with and what is likely to yield the best results.

I have considered using wax to make hilts for most of my projects, because I don't have a decent workshop to work steel - but in the end, I would always manage to get access to a forge and would change route at the last minute. Working in clay, putty, wax, (even done balsa and or high density polystyrene mock ups) working masters in brass...everything is possible really, depending on your skill and equipment.

For such a detail piece and given Niels background in the gaming industry, this is no brainer Happy

Many people would imagine that this took a quick 3D scan and press a button on the printer, but has said, the modeling here was extensive...having done polygon modeling in the past, this is quiet an undertaking and the skill and patience displayed in this example is quiet obvious. I'd be curious to know how many hours went in the modeling process.

For extremely intricate pieces like this, 3D printing opens new avenues. The same job done manually would likely work out (price wise) much higher (this is only conjecture though). For me 3D printing is not very different from any other CNC process, it just taking the concept in another realm of possibility Happy

I'm quiet impressed by how detailed and smooth the render is - I see none of the usual "pixelisation" on this piece.

In any case, digital tech has already made his way into some makers processes - many are using Photoshop to design their pieces, and others have already experimented with 3D printing, other have fully integrated it in their processes:

C Fletcher was one of the first - his shapes, lockets and some hilt parts are done this way, even his custom leather embossing stamps. He uses that odd "layered" finish typical of 3D printing as part of his aesthetics, others (Brian K and his new scabbard shape line) will sand this smooth to get a natural metal finish.

One thing to consider with 3D models, is that they can be easily distributed, and reproduced. At the moment, metal printing is still rather expensive, but in the future it will get cheap for sure...then this might be more of an issue.
If one can download (illegally or not) a hilt model and have it printed in metal for cheap, then this might have a negative impact on the industry.

Cheers,

J
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Feb, 2015 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An early modern sword printed example of castings
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/french-sword-4055d220-d3db-4ece-8b2f-dc23edeca76b

Cheers

GC
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Mike Jia
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Location: Canberra
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Feb, 2015 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Hildebrandt wrote:
Russ Ellis wrote:
I am not quite sure how I feel about that. That Mr. Anderssen has a talent is unquestionable, and that his talent could be used to mass produce things most of us could never own is equally unquestionable. Even if he doesn't do it someone else will. Are we seeing the end of the craftsman in favor of the programmer / designer? Or are we just seeing the craftsman take to a new medium? Or am I just being too pensive and don't understand enough about the process to know what I'm talking about? Happy


In the 3D printing process, a digital model is painstakingly modeled, and I cannot imagine that it takes any less time than modelling in wax. The digital model is then printed in a wax-like resin, and invested for casting, just like a hand-made model would be. The printing of multiple waxes from the same digital model isn't a practical method of mass-production - making moulds to cast new waxes is faster and cheaper, and can be done just as easily with traditionally modeled waxes as 3D printed ones.

So, I am not seeing anything ground-shaking happening in the world of historical repros because of 3D printing, unless they are printed from scans and the laborious modelling process is side-stepped. We just have a new technique that has bridged a gap, allowing digital talent into the world of the concrete. I just hope that we don't end up losing traditional skills altogether, because the history of skills behind the objects we admire has a value of its own, if a less tangible one.

-Jeffrey Hildebrandt


It's no cakewalk, but I think modelling in 3D is much faster than carving by hand. There are some limitations sure (getting round edges can be tricky) but these can be fixed by hand after 3d printing. I've done a 3D suontaka model and I'd say that took around 20-30 hours? I made some compromises on the model (no rounded edges) but otherwise, the details are quite close to the original. I doubt anyone could wax carve the same model in that time frame. 3D printing might not be a solution for mass production, but it's certainly invaluable for prototyping.
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Shahril Dzulkifli




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Mar, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: 3D-printed Migration period sword hilt         Reply with quote

A sword 3D-printed to resemble a real one? That's unbelievable! Surprised
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Mar, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: 3D-printed Migration period sword hilt         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
A sword 3D-printed to resemble a real one? That's unbelievable! Surprised


Not the sword; the handle. And it wasn't printed, it was cast *from* a printing. But yes, it is a notable achievement as the specific piece that was made is fairly prominent.
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