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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 800

PostPosted: Thu 12 Feb, 2015 12:09 pm    Post subject: Beautiful La Tene sword from Lindholmgård Mose.         Reply with quote

According to this paper you have found 9 “Pre-Roman Iron Age“ swords from Sjælland (Zealand) and Skåne (Scania):
Source: https://www.academia.edu/10277082/Weapons_Armament_and_Society._The_Pre-Roman_Iron_Age_on_Zealand_and_in_Scania

Martens, Jes
Weapons, armaments and society. The Pre-Roman Iron Age on Zealand and in Scania
.
Page 147-174
In “The Iron Age on Zealand. Status and Perspectives“ (2011)
Edited by Linda Boye
Nordiske Fortidsminder. Series C, Volume 8.

The best preserved two-edged weapons is shown on page 152 and the (c) picture is the sword from Lindholmgård Mose.
Single-edged swords on page 153.

Here is a big picture of the Lindholmgård Mose sword (with it's pommel) and scabbard: [Here is the picture upright - the attachment below is the same picture just flipped to the right].
Source: http://samlinger.natmus.dk/DO/1885



Page 162-168 discusses a new Sword typology based on the Pre-roman Iron Age swords assemblies found at Hjortspring and Krogsbølle.

The original drawing of the Lindholdgård Mose sword should be this article (though he states the drawing on p. 152 (c) should be an article from 1949, whereas in the references it must be this 1950 paper):
Klindt-Jensen, Ole (1950).
Foreign Influences in Denmark’s Early Iron Age.
Acta Archaeologica XX, p. 1-248
.
NB: Should be figure 15.

The find is also discussed on page 55 & 78 in this publication, which luckily I own:
Liversage, David (1980).
Material and Interpretation. The Archaeology of Sjælland in the early Roman Iron Age.
Publications of the National Museum.
Archaeological-Historical Series I, Vol XX


E2. Lindholmgård, Uvelse Parish, Lynge-Frederiksborg Herred 33UUB2892.
A very fine iron la Tène sword with bronze guard and hollow silver knob at pommel, which was found together with its bronze scabbard at depth of three feet during peat cutting in 1888. One of the earliest occurrences of silver in Northern Europe.
Klindt-Jensen (1950) fig. 15 NMK. C 6131
".

"The blade was three-ribbed in section and blunt-ended with a slight central projection. The concave grooves of the blade were ornamented with punch marks. The guard was mounted with an ogivally-arched plate, and the grip of the organic material (now vanished) had been embellished with two narrow bronze bands bearing a zig-zag pattern. The Iron tang ends in a projecting point, and it was presumingly on this that the little silver globe, which belongs to the find, had its place."
The sword had been deposited inside its iron scabbard, which consisted of two plates, of which that in front was bent around at the edges to enclose the one behind. The scabbard ended in a straight bronze chape, and was carried with the help of two suspension loops of iron, affixed at different heights on opposite edges of the scabbard."

Liversage brings attention to a similar sword and scabbard also with a silver globe at the pommel.
The grave 26 Harsefeld sword; where he gives this reference.
Wegewitz, W. (1937)
Die langobardische Kultur in Gau Moswidi, (Niederelbe) zu Beginn unser Zeitrechnung.
Die Urnenfriedhöfe in Niedersachsen, Band 2, Heft 1/2, Hildesheim/Leipzig
.

Also the Grossromstedt sword should be close in type.
Eichhorn, G. (1927)
Der Urnenfriedhof auf der Schwanze bei Grossromstedt.
Mannus-Bibl. 4 Leipzig
.

He ends disputing Klindt-Jensen (1950). "The Lindholmgård sword cannot have been a Celtic import.........as its parallels lie north of the Celtic area and date from after the fall of the Celtic civilization".

Liversage (1980) doesn't have a picture of the Lindholmgård sword, but instead of the Tissø sword (p.79) -> that picture is reproduced on page 152 (b) in the Martens article referred to at the top.

So hopefully Liversage gives some information for a reproduction by those who wants to.
In his great four-bind volume of “Danmarks Oldtid“ (2004, 2006) Jørgen Jensen gives the total length of the Lindholmgård Mose sword to 85 cm (Bind 3, page 173). That was actually a bit longer than I thought compared with the length I calculated from the Liversage picture of the Tissø sword given below.

Tissø Sword: Total length ~70 cm.
Based on the image of the Tissø sword in Liversage I guess that blade is ~55 cm to the small guard and ~60 cm to where the hilt begins. Then ~10 cm hilt.



 Attachment: 101.66 KB
La Tene Sword - Lindholmgård Mose.
Source: http://samlinger.natmus.dk/DO/1885
[ Download ]


Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:35 am; edited 6 times in total
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,238

PostPosted: Thu 12 Feb, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks! That article on academia.edu is very interesting, I didn't know there were other La Tene swords found in that area except the Lindholmgard sword.
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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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Posts: 482

PostPosted: Thu 12 Feb, 2015 7:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really appreciate posts like this: interesting weapons, with archeological information attached to them. Thanks very much for this, and others like it (the viking axe thread, for example).
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Aaron O'Bryan-Herriott




Location: Edmonds, Wa
Joined: 24 May 2006
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I too appreciate this post. It's very kind of you to bring it to our attention... although I would love to get my hands on the printed/published material in original form Happy

Is there a way to find and buy it?

Also, in the text I found this sentence:

<< These swords belong to Jørgensen’s types Sax 2, 3 and 4. >>

Can someone please enlighten me as to who the mentioned "Jørgensen" is here and where I might find any published work from them on Sax typology? I ask because I have a big soft spot for these blades and I hadn't heard this name associated with them before. I've seen the Sax typology ( http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18459 ) thread here, but don't recall any mention of a Jørgensen in it...

Thanks...

Aaron
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Aaron O'Bryan-Herriott




Location: Edmonds, Wa
Joined: 24 May 2006
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry for the request on where to buy the book... I found a source after a very brief web search.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 800

PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb, 2015 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron O'Bryan-Herriott wrote:
I too appreciate this post. It's very kind of you to bring it to our attention... although I would love to get my hands on the printed/published material in original form Happy

Is there a way to find and buy it?

Also, in the text I found this sentence:

<< These swords belong to Jørgensen’s types Sax 2, 3 and 4. >>

Can someone please enlighten me as to who the mentioned "Jørgensen" is here and where I might find any published work from them on Sax typology? I ask because I have a big soft spot for these blades and I hadn't heard this name associated with them before. I've seen the Sax typology ( http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18459 ) thread here, but don't recall any mention of a Jørgensen in it...

Thanks...

Aaron


I would reckon it is this book from the Series B of “Nordiske Fortidsminder: (Danish publishing, written in German).
Nørgård Jørgensen, Anne (1999).
Waffen und Gräber: typologische und chronologische Studien zu skandinavischen Waffen gräbern 520/30 bis 900 n. chr. (Nordiske Fortidsminder ser. B Vol. 17). 417 pages, 279 b&w and colour figures, 4 tables.
Copenhagen: Kongelige Nordiske Oldskriftselskab;

Danish website: http://www.oldskriftselskabet.dk/
Click left on "Nordiske Fortidsminder“ and then afterwards scroll down to series B “bind 17“.

The Martens article is from the same publisher:
Series C bind 8 - that is the book at the very bottom of the page.


It seems that the National Museum shop has sold out the first one (but see the german source under the attachment, which has both books), but the Martens article from the newer book they still have.
See: http://www.museumsbutikken.dk/default.aspx?lo...amp;group=

This thread on a competing forum provides the scans of the sax types (the other instances on “myArmoury“ I found, lead to a dead link):
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?sho...amp;page=4



 Attachment: 191.4 KB
bmaw1.jpg
Front page of the book:
Source (found a place where you can by it): http://www.antikmakler.de/catalog/cat-76/cat-1131/cat-277/bmaw1.html

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Jerry Monaghan




Location: melbourne australia
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
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Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2015 12:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Niels
Thanks for posting this is fantastic I appreciate posts like this the sword is amazing and I would love to have it replicated
in all its glory.

Regards

Jerry Monaghan
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 800

PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb, 2015 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martens discussed in his paper the new sword typology done from assemblages at Hjortspring & Krogsbølle.

The Nationalmuseum has a page with pictures of weaponry and a typical shield from Hjortspring.
Age 350 BC, so early Iron Age.
Source: http://natmus.dk/historisk-viden/danmark/oldt...ortspring/

Here is a picture of the Krogsbølle weapons: [date a bit more unclear, possibly 250-100 BC)
Source: http://samlinger.natmus.dk/DO/1314

Another picture of Krogsbølle finds:
Source: http://historiskatlas.dk/image/1/60801.jpg



 Attachment: 27.49 KB
Hjortspring_sværd.jpg
Hjortspring swords.
Source: http://natmus.dk/historisk-viden/danmark/oldtid-indtil-aar-1050/aeldre-jernalder-500-fkr-400-ekr/haeren-fra-hjortspring-mose/haeren-fra-hjortspring/



Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Aaron O'Bryan-Herriott




Location: Edmonds, Wa
Joined: 24 May 2006
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, once again I'd like to thank you for your kindness Niels.

I immediately recognized those photographed blades as the same ones in the illustrations from the Martens' piece Happy
I adds considerably to my understanding of them to see their surfaces.

As a matter of interest from the POV of one who spends some time at the forge at home, has anyone ever gone into the original makers went about creating the ridged back on some of these sax blades? I can imagine a few possibilities, but I wonder if there are opinions better qualified than mine which have already been put forward...

Thanks again...

Aaron
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 800

PostPosted: Tue 17 Feb, 2015 2:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron O'Bryan-Herriott wrote:
Yes, once again I'd like to thank you for your kindness Niels.

I immediately recognized those photographed blades as the same ones in the illustrations from the Martens' piece Happy
I adds considerably to my understanding of them to see their surfaces.

As a matter of interest from the POV of one who spends some time at the forge at home, has anyone ever gone into the original makers went about creating the ridged back on some of these sax blades? I can imagine a few possibilities, but I wonder if there are opinions better qualified than mine which have already been put forward...

Thanks again...

Aaron


Well thank you for showing interest in the thread. Happy to be of help. Wink

I actually don't know how much detailed smithing-research that has been done on the Danish finds. I would guess most of it is typology work or occasional metallurgy samples.
Actual remakes done by Danish Musems to get as close to the original as possible I actually don't know if it happens very often.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 800

PostPosted: Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Found info about the total length of the Lindhomgård Mose sword.
85 cm according to Jørgen Jensen. Info also edited to the top post.
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