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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Unidentified Fighting Objects         Reply with quote

Let's have some fun.

Let's search for unidentified fighting objects. You know, the swords that look weird. The daggers that seem impossible to place. The funny looking shields. The polearms of unknown origin. The bows that look like they were made by aliens or the helmets that makes you go "WTF?"

In short: the John Doe's and ET's of historical arms and armor.

So whether you are sharing information about the UFO or asking for it; if you have a picture of an odd looking weapon or some strange protective gear, please post it.

Sir Dreamin'
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Mike Ruhala




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been wondering what these clubs were for a while.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4784/12587/

There's also a few interesting things on Bishop Henry's sarcophagus from Nousiainen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...iainen.JPG

On the upper left there's a wicked spikey two handed sword-axe-thingy. On the right hand side a little above the cannon is somebody holding a strange club similar to those shown in the first link. Some unusual two-handed war hammers are in attendance and a couple triangle shields with raised bosses... perhaps center gripped like the earlier round shields? There are also curved double-edged swords being worn by soldiers on both sides of the battle. I wish there was more information on arms and armor in Medieval Finland, it looks like there was some pretty interesting stuff going on!
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Mark Griffin




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 2:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
There's also a few interesting things on Bishop Henry's sarcophagus from Nousiainen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...iainen.JPG


Indeed there is. Whats with the conical stripey hats? Looks like a Dr Seuss picture... Is that a common Finnish style?

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The guy right in front of the one in the stripy hat http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...iainen.JPG has a weapon like the one here in this Alexander MS. It's a sort of two handed falchion with a Gil Hibben look. There are other examples of it in this manuscript; some with two handed sword grips and others with hafts.



Mac

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Edward Lee




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This looks interesting, I assume that it's some sort of shield combined with gauntlet. But there is a hole with lid?


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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edward Lee wrote:
This looks interesting, I assume that it's some sort of shield combined with gauntlet. But there is a hole with lid?


It lets the light from the built-in lantern shine out. Seriously. Happy

That piece (or one just like it) is pictured in our article Spotlight: Combination Weapons.

Happy

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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
But there is a hole with lid?


My guess is either for prozac or snuff. Heck, could be both....

It depends on what the back of the shield looks like. I've not seen one with a rear mounted lantern and in any case the 'lantern on the front to blind your opponents' line is a bit far fetched. maybe a small firearm or similar projectile weapon...?

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Under the circumstances, I don't think a little thing like "far fetched" rules it out. Wink

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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about this sword? What is up with the grip? In particular the pummel. Artistic freedom by the painter? Ceremonial?


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Sir Dreamin'
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edward Lee wrote:
This looks interesting, I assume that it's some sort of shield combined with gauntlet. But there is a hole with lid?


Beet me to posting this one

This is a lantern shield, on the other side of the hole is space for a candle or lantern, supposedly to blind your enemies at night. I may be misunderstanding its use but it was suppose to be 'police issue' for the night watch



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lantern_shield_02_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg


David L Smith
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 5:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are two other lantern shields, a photo and plans and a rough drawing

I am thinking that if I ever have the time I am going to make one for the fun of it



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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Edward Lee wrote:
This looks interesting, I assume that it's some sort of shield combined with gauntlet. But there is a hole with lid?


It lets the light from the built-in lantern shine out. Seriously. Happy

That piece (or one just like it) is pictured in our article Spotlight: Combination Weapons.


This weapon must have been Swiss....
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 9:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
Chad Arnow wrote:
Edward Lee wrote:
This looks interesting, I assume that it's some sort of shield combined with gauntlet. But there is a hole with lid?


It lets the light from the built-in lantern shine out. Seriously. Happy

That piece (or one just like it) is pictured in our article Spotlight: Combination Weapons.


This weapon must have been Swiss....


Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna

David L Smith
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 2:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah have seen that one, a fun project for someone.

Its just me being picky, you might be distracted by a tiny light (which is all that would be able to give) but blinding is unlikely. Its not exactly a mag-lite...

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 5:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find blinding highly unlikely, but we live in a world of lots of ambulant light. I think it more likely that in a flight the flame would go out. It might have been a carbide light, I do not know when carbide came in to use however.

With all of the protrusions I think it would be more hindrance then anything else

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Sa'ar Nudel




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In a remote corner of the Deutche Historische Museum...


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Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bronze Age Denmark - the two Rørby swords.

These must be ceremonial - if they are indeed “swords“ and not more Bronze Clubs?
Interestingly one like it is seen on a hittite carving; so most likely a symbol of a Hittite King.
Indo-European dual royalty (for instance Romulus-Remus and Hengest-Horsa myths) can explain why there are two swords.
The Danish bronze age horned helmets were also found in dual pairs, as often Lur's are as well.

Possibly Hittite King Tudhaliya IV [1237-1209 BC] with curved sword/club in the belt on his left (right of the picture).
.

I haven't seen reports of any finds of this type besides the two mentioned. Other Hittite and Scandinavian swords are not curved in this way. So they are exclusively for royalty (likely dual in Scandinavia).

So it is noteworthy that the Danish swords are 400 years older than the Hittite royalty symbol.......



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Rørby_sværd.jpg
Rørby Swords 1600 BC.
Source: http://natmus.dk/historisk-viden/danmark/oldtid-indtil-aar-1050/bronzealderen-1700-fkr-500-fkr/svaerdene-fra-roerby/



Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Tue 10 Feb, 2015 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 8:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the weirdest gladiatorial weapons was carried by the “Scissor“ gladiator, if this carving from Bodrum can be identified as such. See attachment for the carving.

So perhaps something reconstructed like this, if we allow a some change of helmet?

Then I just need to learn the technique of using that thing Laughing Out Loud



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Scissor_gladiator.jpg
Bodrum...Possible Scissor gladiator.
Source: http://www.livius.org/ha-hd/halicarnassus/halicarnassus_photos.html



Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Sun 08 Feb, 2015 12:14 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Mark Griffin




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Carbide lighting is pretty late. 1890's i think. before that its the usual fats, oils and waxes.

I think you'd be better off having a sock puppet behind the hole to surprise people.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ups......attached the wrong image. Eek!
Have corrected it now in the post above. So in the youtube videos of reenactors, it's seems to be more based on the toy model than the actual carving (especially in respect to helmet? and shape of the weird weapon).
Edit: It seems to be based on the Myron relief - see below....

An Austrian reenactment with a “scissor“:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6ks_e2TGhc

So it should be based on the interpretation by Marcus Junkelmann possibly in his book.
Das Spiel mit dem Tod: So Kämpften Roms Gladiatoren (2000)

Found this headstone from Louvre in memory of the the gladiator Myron that looks like a scissor fighter [also interpreted this way by Stephen Wisdom in 2001: Gladiators 100 BC-AD 200, page 4 Osprey].
http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=768

From Garrett G. Fagan's book: “The Lure of the Arena: Social Psychology and the Crowd at the Roman Games“ (2011), page 217.
But it has recently been argued — on the basis of a relief from Satala in Lydia, two reliefs and accompanying inscriptions from Hierapolis in Phrygia, and a comment in Artemidorus (2.32) — that such gladiators were termed arbelai (after a semi-circular cobbler’s knife), at least in the Greek East; and the Hierapolis reliefs show them fighting each other, not retiarii.
Fagan sees no problem that fighter could have different names in different parts of the Empire.

It also shows that there should be a number of possible scissor relief around.

Fagan discusses shortly the “scissores“ in this lecture from the Penn Museum: “How to Stage a Bloodbath: Gladiators at the Roman Arena“ (2014). From 8.20-9.00 min
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIEAIGwzshU

It had also been suggested that maybe the “scissor“ fought blindly in a fully enclosed helmet for the fun of the spectators as he had to cut through the nets with his carving-knife-thingy, while being taunted by the “retiarius“ (trident+net gladiator).


Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Mon 09 Feb, 2015 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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