Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Naumburg scabbard (DIY)DIY Project Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Thu 05 Feb, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject: Naumburg scabbard (DIY)         Reply with quote

I have a fascination with Medieval scabbards and thong belts, so I decided to try to reproduce one of the scabbards that can be seen on the statues at the Naumburg cathedral in Germany. Construction of the Naumburg cathdedral began right after AD 1200.

The scabbards depicted at the Naumburg cathedral are interesting in that the thong belts are extremely wide - about 4 inches wide. There are depictions of similarly-wide thong belts in the illuminated manuscript Elisabethpsalter (folio 139 verso), Germany, circa AD 1200-1220, but later (13th-14th C) thong belts of the German Empire were a tad bit narrow than these monsters.

The other interesting point about the Naumburg scabbards is that they all have an offset sword belt. To the best of my knowledge and research, the offset sword belt was developed right around AD 1200 - and the earliest depiction that I can find of an offset sword belt is also depicted in folio 139 verso in Elisabethpsalter.

So perhaps these extremely wide thong belts represent the "first generation" of the offset sword belt.

Reproducing the Naumburg scabbard presented several of challenges, all of which I managed to solve through a lot of experimentation and failure.

The first challenge was to find a suitable leather for the thong belt. There is at least one other thread that addressed this question. Oakeshott described the leather as "buckskin" in Records of the Medieval Sword - and looking at the soft, cloth-like characteristics of thong belt leather one would tend to agree. However, buckskin stretches too much to be of any use for a sword belt. I used oil-tanned Latigo leather in a cream color and I believe this is perfect. It is slightly elastic but does not stretch, is very strong and has a very soft (almost chamois-like) feel.

The second challenge was reproducing the striking lacing pattern noted on the Naumburg scabbards. After many months of staring at photos of this lacing, I finally figured out how to reproduce the pattern. To perfect the technique I make a mock-up of a scabbard and did some hands-on experimentation (see the DIY Scabbard thread).

The third and most difficult challenge - one that no none has ever addressed that I can tell - is the piping that I have seen around the edges of triangular rain guards of the Naumburg (and other) scabbards. Days of experimentation and multiple failures finally produced a solution, albeit not an ideal one.

Anyway, here it is.



 Attachment: 153.68 KB
naumburg.jpg


 Attachment: 182.3 KB
naumburg 2.jpg



Last edited by Harry Marinakis on Thu 05 Feb, 2015 10:32 pm; edited 5 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Thu 05 Feb, 2015 9:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the scabbard.

I started with a high-resolution photo of one of the Naumburg lacing patterns and carefully measured all of the strap widths and other parameters. I converted these measurements into fractions of the scabbard width. Then I multiplied these fractions by the width of my wood core to get real measurements for my scabbard. This way the proportions are identical to the Naumburg scabbard.

Sword is an Oakeshott Type XI (Del Tin 2121)
Bronze chape is from DBK's new line of chapes.



 Attachment: 249.03 KB
IMGP7719.JPG


 Attachment: 159.82 KB
IMGP7724.JPG


 Attachment: 168.46 KB
IMGP7725.JPG

View user's profile Send private message
Martin Helgren




Location: Denmark
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 12:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice Work! I always admire this amount of attention to detail and hands on research. Congratulations on a very nice scabbard!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jerry Monaghan




Location: melbourne australia
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 1:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Martin
love what you have done very nice scabbard great detail congratulations on an fine job

Regards

Jerry Monaghan
View user's profile Send private message
Bryan Heff




Location: Philadelphia
Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 3:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really nice! I like what you did just below the throat. Looks like it's integrated by passing through slits in the black leather but then perhaps the top and bottom gets an additional wrap with the white leather. I don't think I have seen that before. Very cool.
The church is near but the roads are icy. The tavern is far but I will walk carefully. - Russian Proverb
View user's profile Send private message
Radovan Geist




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 358

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 3:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That“s a really nice job, indeed. Very clean, well-thought and backed by research. Congrats!
View user's profile Send private message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding the lacing below the mouth:

One strap from the thong was laced through the cover, then was split into two tails on the backside. Each of these tails were wrapped around front again, one above and one below. This gives you the ladder-like appearance.

Other stats:

Carved two-piece poplar wood core, 1/8" thick

Lined with 8 oz. woven wool fabric (fullered)

Veg tan leather cover 2-3 oz.

Linen thread whip stitch on the back seam

Straps are 6-8 oz. cream Latigo leather, sanded down to 3-4 oz. weight

I have always used a butted seam and cross stitch on the back seam until now but I don't have any evidence that such a stitch was used. The Vikings used a butted seam and whip stitch early on, but after AD 975 switched to closed seam and saddler's stitch.

Anyone have any evidence of the cross stitch on scabbards in the medieval period?
View user's profile Send private message
Brian K.
Industry Professional



Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Joined: 01 Jan 2008

Posts: 717

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 1:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Outstanding work Harry. Even without any back story to your construction it's immediately obvious that attention to detail was a priority.
Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay

This thread confirms my suspicions: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...+stitching

The cross stitch (represented in the above thread as XXXXX) was not used for scabbards.

Initially I used the cross stitch with a butted seam because that's what everyone else was doing, but there is no evidence that this stitch was ever used for scabbards.

Seems the most common stitches for scabbards were:

-Closed seam with a saddler's stitch
-Butted seam with a whip stitch (represented in the above thread as ///////////)
-Butted seam with a hidden edge-flesh stitch

From my reseatrch it seems that the stitching became tighter and tighter wtih time. My Naumburg scabbard has 3-1/2 stitches per inch, while it is likely that I should have 5-6 stitches per inch for historical accuracy.
View user's profile Send private message
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,587

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice work, I admire your talent.

You mentioned having the measurements for the original scabbard - is the statue life size? How long would you say the original bade of this sword would have been?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Nice work, I admire your talent.

You mentioned having the measurements for the original scabbard - is the statue life size? How long would you say the original bade of this sword would have been?


I don't know the details on the size of the statues.

The Naumburg swords were probably Oakeshott Type XII swords, so the blades would have been 32-34 inches. However, I measured the statues scabbard as being 37 inches long, which would be more consistent with a Type XI sword. The sword that I used for my scabbard is a Type XI.

It ain't talent, it's practice and determination. Usually takes me 2 to 3 tries to get it right. I hve been doing a lot of work with mock-ups to hone my techniques, helps me figure out how to do it and gives me a lot of practice before I start on the real thing.
View user's profile Send private message
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,587

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
The Naumburg swords were probably Oakeshott Type XII swords


That's what I wonder about. Oakeshott implied it was an XII, but in overall proportions and hilt type it reminds me more of some of the surviving XI swords with medium length 1a crosses and type I pommels. It looks long pretty long too, like some XIs, although I guess that depends how tall the count was. Guess we'll never know.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They're close to life-sized. See this image of restorer Friedhelm Wittchen with Ekkehard and Uta.


Of course two men of equal height can have inseams differing by several inches.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui


Last edited by Mart Shearer on Sun 08 Feb, 2015 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If the Naumburg swords are really type XI, then....

...these scabbards probably date to the late 1100s, which means.....

...these are the earliest known examples of offset sword belts.
View user's profile Send private message
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 5:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naumburg_Master
Quote:
The Naumburg Master (German: Naumburger Meister or Meister von Naumburg) is the name given to an anonymous medieval sculptor. His works date to the middle of the 13th century and are counted among the most important artworks of the Middle Ages.

The Naumburg Master very likely learned his craft in northern France in the heyday of the High Gothic style. He was active in Noyon, Amiens, and Reims around 1225, and possibly also later in Metz. Around 1230 he worked on the cathedral in Mainz, where he worked on the fragmentary rood screen. Afterward he traveled east to Naumburg. The twelve monumental donor portraits in the west choir of the Naumburg Cathedral are considered his masterpieces, and it is from thence that his name derives.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
View user's profile Send private message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The planning for the cathedral was likely done before the constructions began, but how early?

According to Oakeshott the Type XI was replaced by the Type XII around AD 1175, but we see what looks like a Type XI on a statues that was constructed after AD 1230.

Did Oakeshott gets the Type XI service dates wrong?
Do the statues show Type XI or XII swords?

Lots of unanswerable questions.
View user's profile Send private message
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,587

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what its worth, I could accept that type XI lasted into the 13th century.

There seems to be some current consensus that Oakeshott both over-compensated for some of the too-late dating of swords by the generation that preceded him - and overgeneralized the dating of Leppaho's finds to later swords based on general similarity of the inlay. In other words, some of the swords he dated to 12th century might have been 13th century. The Witham sword in the British Museum is an another example (not of XI, but of the principle).
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I admire your attention to detail, especially the quality of your seam stitching! Happy
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Ęthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Mon 09 Feb, 2015 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
For what its worth, I could accept that type XI lasted into the 13th century.

Agreed, that's why I used a Type XI instead of a Type XII sword for this project.
Or maybe I just wanted to believe that the Type XI lasted into the 13th C.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Naumburg scabbard (DIY)DIY Project
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum