Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Peter J. Harmonics Request. Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sun 11 Jan, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Peter J. Harmonics Request.         Reply with quote

I have been very intrigued with Peter Johnsson's findings on sword harmonics.











I can attest that my own Alexandria and Cluny have the exact same harmonics present and I have a Munich on order that I would be intrigued to test and see if the harmonics follow those of the Bayerische museum sword that we all find so beautiful.

I have several questions and requests from Peter if he can find the time to answer them on the forum, I believe they will benefit a great deal of people here.

The first would be more pictures like the above, especially for swords in the Museum line, like the Brescia Spadona, the Svante etc... Failing to have pictures then average stats for there pivot points and vibration nodes.

Second would be how he views these different things interact with one another within a swords function.

And third of a more personal nature, if the Albion Munich which the blade is millimeters within the originals has indeed the same balance, pivot points and vibration nodes as the Bayerische Museum original. Which would be intriguing to see what influence a different pommel and guard design have on the exact same blade.

Further i call all fellow foromites to measure there own Albion's and post said stats here for the benefit of all.
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Thu 15 Jan, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hector, thank you for kind words.
I am glad you find this stuff useful and interesting.

I publish details on dynamic properties from time to time, but it is not possible for me to serve everything on one plate so to say.

There is hope however. This year I am involved in organising an exhibition at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum:
"The Sword: Form and Thought"
There will be a catalogue published together with the exhibition that will present all swords that are on display.

My intention as curator and art director for the exhibition is to make available a nice set of data for each sword: measurements, dynamic properties and an analysis of proportions to show if there may be a structure or system underlying the design.
All swords will be presented with photos and drawings to give a good idea of their form and character.

I think this is the kind of work you are interested in?

The exhibition will open in September 2015 and the catalogue will be available at that time.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mark T




PostPosted: Thu 15 Jan, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Peter,

Thanks for this information - I've been curious to see where these ideas have taken you in the meantime!

If you happen to remember, if you could post a link here for where to order the catalog when it's ready, I'm sure many of us would be interested.

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
View user's profile Send private message
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,587

PostPosted: Thu 15 Jan, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
The exhibition will open in September 2015 and the catalogue will be available at that time.


Hmmm, we are currently firming up plans to be in Marburg, about 2hrs away, for the month of August. Perhaps we should push that forward a bit...this sounds pretty special.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 12:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a Facebook page for the exhibition, where new info on the various projects that will combine into the final exhibition will be presented:

https://www.facebook.com/SwordExhibition

Some 40+ swords will be displayed, mostly focusing on the medieval and early renaissance period. The swords come from the collection of the Deutshces Klingenmuseum, but many important swords are also loaned from other museums and from generous private collectors.
All the swords that are to be displayed in the exhibition will be published in the catalogue with photographs and clear line drawings, to present their form and character in a rich and unambiguous manner.
Together with the images, measurements and details about dynamic properties will be noted.
Our ambition is to provide a basis of understanding of the sword with a perspective from many points of view.

I am very happy that we have been given permission to illustrate the role and importance of the sword in medieval society by the use of high quality reproduction prints and close up photos of period art work.

The making, function, design and use of the sword will be shown through analysis of all the swords included in the exhibit. Several original edition fight manuals that are in the museumīs collection will be on display.

Four contemporary sword makers (me included) are invited to create original work on a shared theme: four new swords will be made to express the idea of the sword as an object of "penetrating light" from the ancient Greek word "Xiphos". These timeless new creations will be exhibited in a special section alongside with photos of the work and the artistīs own sketches and notes, to show the craft and design but also to highlight the creative, artistic aspect of the work that goes into the making of a sword.

For me, this project is a dream come true.
I hope that many Forumites will be able to make the trip to Solingen to see the exhibit.
In October there will be an international seminar on the Sword. The papers of this seminar will also be published as a second part of the catalogue, to provide a range of contemporary scholarly work in the field of Spathology.



 Attachment: 165.45 KB
CollageSwordsXSmall.png

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Hector, thank you for kind words.
I am glad you find this stuff useful and interesting.

I publish details on dynamic properties from time to time, but it is not possible for me to serve everything on one plate so to say.

There is hope however. This year I am involved in organising an exhibition at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum:
"The Sword: Form and Thought"
There will be a catalogue published together with the exhibition that will present all swords that are on display.

My intention as curator and art director for the exhibition is to make available a nice set of data for each sword: measurements, dynamic properties and an analysis of proportions to show if there may be a structure or system underlying the design.
All swords will be presented with photos and drawings to give a good idea of their form and character.

I think this is the kind of work you are interested in?

The exhibition will open in September 2015 and the catalogue will be available at that time.


Thank you for your answer Peter, the dynamics of a sword in motion is what really interests me because i cut and practice a lot with them.
I suspected the reason you didn't post more about them was to avoid giving your competition freebies.
I don't want you to risk any of your work if you judge you cannot, but i thought swords designed by you for Albion had a copyright protection allowing greater divulsion without risk.

Two popular swords that interest me are the Brescia and Svante, i have measured them but i cannot know for sure without your guidance if there dynamic properties match the originals, hence why i ask if you could show us threw a picture or simple estimates (1/3 1/4 of the blade etc) where all these points should be. The Svante is particularly hard as it is to some degree harmonically "dead", by that i mean its so stiff its hard to make it vibrate unless your hitting steel plate ^^.

Also does the Albion Munich have the same dynamic motion properties as the original in the Bayerische Museum, this intrigues me as it would mean general shape, density and size determine dynamic property rather than exact shape, as both sword have the same blade but approximate fittings, yet if they move in the same way that would validate what i believe.

Your exhibition looks fantastic, congratulation on the work opportunity, i will see if i am close to that part of the world in September.
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 8:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hector, I understand your thirst for knowledge.

In regards to the Brescia and the Munich, I can say that they are indeed very close to the original swords. That is the whole idea with the work I do for Albion. The NG Munich sword is not an exact reproduction of the original in the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, but the differences are of an aesthetic nature. In handling and function it is very close to the original sword.

I cannot show a graphical representation of the dynamics at this time.

My work for Albion is indeed under copyright, but that is not always a guarantee it will not be copied and plagiarised.
This kind of detailed data on the dynamics of original swords that you ask for is as a rule only available if you take the trouble to document originals yourself. It is powerful information for a sword maker, in that you can take it and design a new sword that feature the exact same dynamics, even if it looks different.You will then have a sword with authentic and functional dynamic properties, instead of a sword that is based on conjecture and preconception.

I have learned that I must be careful with what I share and I hope you understand.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,587

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edit: since Peter started another thread on the Solingen exhibition, I will am moving my original post post to the more appropriate thread.

Last edited by J.D. Crawford on Fri 16 Jan, 2015 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Hector, I understand your thirst for knowledge.

In regards to the Brescia and the Munich, I can say that they are indeed very close to the original swords. That is the whole idea with the work I do for Albion. The NG Munich sword is not an exact reproduction of the original in the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, but the differences are of an aesthetic nature. In handling and function it is very close to the original sword.

I cannot show a graphical representation of the dynamics at this time.

My work for Albion is indeed under copyright, but that is not always a guarantee it will not be copied and plagiarised.
This kind of detailed data on the dynamics of original swords that you ask for is as a rule only available if you take the trouble to document originals yourself. It is powerful information for a sword maker, in that you can take it and design a new sword that feature the exact same dynamics, even if it looks different.You will then have a sword with authentic and functional dynamic properties, instead of a sword that is based on conjecture and preconception.

I have learned that I must be careful with what I share and I hope you understand.


I understand, thank you for answering anyway and keep up your work it is very interesting and helps greatly in understanding how to use my Albions, it literally dictates many aspects of what you can and cannot do with them, where to strike, how to hold them etc...
If i may ask 1 last question, where is the guards vibration node on the Svante? From what i can tell on mine its a few (2-3) cm's under the guard, do you validate this observation? I also feel it handles far better when i hold my forward hand further below the guard, rather than directly underneath it.
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hector A. wrote:

I understand, thank you for answering anyway and keep up your work it is very interesting and helps greatly in understanding how to use my Albions, it literally dictates many aspects of what you can and cannot do with them, where to strike, how to hold them etc...
If i may ask 1 last question, where is the guards vibration node on the Svante? From what i can tell on mine its a few (2-3) cm's under the guard, do you validate this observation? I also feel it handles far better when i hold my forward hand further below the guard, rather than directly underneath it.


I am not an expert swordsman, so you have to take my word with a grain of salt concerning this.

I think that many long swords were gripped with the forward hand at a slight distance from the guard and not tucked up right behind it.
You can see this in artwork and many grips survive that has a riser at half an inch or an inch inside the guard. I think this is a tactile marking for the placing of the index finger.

With long gripped long swords, you tend to have to grip node placed closer to the middle of the grip, rather than closely behind the guard. This would also make some sense if you grip the swords a little bit further back.

The Svante is a pretty good example of this, I think, even though the grip most probably did not have any extra riser at some distance behind the guard. When I cut with my original reconstruction, I tend to grip with my right hand slightly behind the guard, like you seem to prefer as well.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 328

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Like most Western swords longswords were used with a variety of grips depending on circumstance. One of those grips is the so-called "saber grip" which does indeed put your dominant hand some distance from the guard.

I find the subject of harmonics very interesting but at the same time I wonder how much practical effect it really has when you consider all the different gripping techniques that will be used, some even move one or both hands off the grip and onto the pommel or blade. As well cleaving cuts are only 1 of 3 chief methods of attack with the blade and the entire sword has to be considered from a tactical perspective as well since ultimately it is meant to fight. Hilt configuration has a clear and immediate impact on a sword's value as does blade shape. The effects of mass distribution on dynamic handling are readily felt as well and I know this is tied to harmonics but I'm fuzzy on whether this is where most of the harmonics fine tuning comes from or if it's got a bit more to do with geometry.
View user's profile Send private message
Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Hector A. wrote:

I understand, thank you for answering anyway and keep up your work it is very interesting and helps greatly in understanding how to use my Albions, it literally dictates many aspects of what you can and cannot do with them, where to strike, how to hold them etc...
If i may ask 1 last question, where is the guards vibration node on the Svante? From what i can tell on mine its a few (2-3) cm's under the guard, do you validate this observation? I also feel it handles far better when i hold my forward hand further below the guard, rather than directly underneath it.


I am not an expert swordsman, so you have to take my word with a grain of salt concerning this.

I think that many long swords were gripped with the forward hand at a slight distance from the guard and not tucked up right behind it.
You can see this in artwork and many grips survive that has a riser at half an inch or an inch inside the guard. I think this is a tactile marking for the placing of the index finger.

With long gripped long swords, you tend to have to grip node placed closer to the middle of the grip, rather than closely behind the guard. This would also make some sense if you grip the swords a little bit further back.

The Svante is a pretty good example of this, I think, even though the grip most probably did not have any extra riser at some distance behind the guard. When I cut with my original reconstruction, I tend to grip with my right hand slightly behind the guard, like you seem to prefer as well.


Grain of salt? Not at all, your dead on the money about this. Manuals depict people that used long swords gripping them lower behind the guard, there are two clear reasons for this, the nodes as you said, resulting in less vibration giving better cuts and a more enjoyable experience on your hands while using it, and the second is your hands are safer from blades hitting the cross guard.

The risers at specific places on grips are something i have also noticed and confirm the above point in many cases. The original munich sword has one such riser, and the vibration node is above the center of the grip.
But this is not there only use, they also provide grip and control when transitioning from grip to grip depending on what phase of a fight you are in (striking, binding, setting aside etc...) you can see this in swords like the Cluny, who have a riser below the guard despite having a very tight fit grip and a vibration node in the upper part of the guard.

I don't think the Svante had any risers either so that the users could shift his hands apart on the grip to gain distance between them after a strike, effectively gaining leverage for the bind.

If you ever want to discuss any of this more in dept contact me via a message and we will set up a conversation.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Peter J. Harmonics Request.
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum