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Daniele Trentin




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jan, 2015 5:13 am    Post subject: Hypotetical reconstrution of a CoP, 1200-1250         Reply with quote

Hi to all folks!

I need some help from you.

I am thinking about making an hypotetical reconstruction of a coat of plates of the 1250's,.

I already know the main two sources, the St.Maurice effigy and the guard of the Holy Sepulchre, but it is not exactly what I am planning.

I did dome researches, in northern italian communal statutes. In many of them I have found the term lameria, a torso defence which was used over a hauberk (for richer fighters like knights and sergeants) or alone, perhaps over a gambeson, for infantrymen. It is often required as an alternative of the corettum, which has not clearly identified yet but seems to be a leather breastplate or similar, and the panzeria which is a short-sleeved mail shirt shorter and lighter than a hauberk.

I read a book by Aldo Settia, a major italian medievalist, who thinks such armor could have been an ancestor of XIV-century coat-of-plates and later brigandines. He also thinks that the St.Maurice armor could be a lameria, but I don't know in medieval Germany how common were such defences.

Well, I want to make a hypotetical reconstruction of such lameria for a heavy infantryman. What I need right now are sources on how coat-of-plates were made and how common they were in the XIII century.

The only examples I know atre the Wisby ones, dating 1361 but probably outdated for that century, and (I read, I'm not sure) be more likely of the 1320 or so. I wanted to compare such armors with earlier examples, to understand how they have evolved and at the end to make a reasonable reconstruction of such lameria.

I live in an area which had great german influence, being ruled from the da Romano family (Ezzelino II da Romano), so I'd primarly focus on italian and german sources. The period is the middle of the century, the earlier we stay the better is for me.

I would also like to gather some sources and then discuss them. I don't like very much posts like "it was in this way" or "ther did this because I think so", I need the more sources I can get, and any hypothesis should be made from these sources. Thanks a lot in advance for your understanding.

Many thanks to your contribute.

Regards,

Daniele
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jan, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://archive.org/stream/statutidellesoc02ga...2/mode/1up

p.17
Societa Dei Lombardi, 1256
Sec. XXXXVI

Item statuimus et ordinamus quod quilibet de
societate armorum debeat habere
scutum seu scrimetum, elmum vel caçetum,
cubam vel guayferiam vel lamerium
cum insignia societates intus, et eam portare in dorso
in omni exercitu et cavalcata et strenuta.

This is one of the earliest references to the "lamerium" of which I am aware. While it seems comfortable to take this back to 1250, I certainly wouldn't want to push it back to 1200, or even 1225. Further, we are unsure of the differences between scutum and scrimetum shields, elmum or caçetum head protection, or cubam or guayferiam or lamerium body protection. These lames might be a pair of plates, or scale armor. Some might go out on a limb and suggest lamellar armor.

We do see that the armor is to be marked on the inside as belonging to the Society, but that does little to help us with construction. The other two cited sources, the St. Maurice of Magdeburg (generally given as c.1250 though Claude Blair considers that it might be as late as c.1300) and the "Sleeping Guard" from Kloster Wienhausen, c. 1280-1290, are nebulous sources for the appearance of an armor c.1250. Both do seem to depict all vertically aligned plates, like the Wisby Type II defenses. Pairs of plates aren't common in depictions from the 13th century, primarily due to the commonality of the surcoat worn over armor.

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Daniele Trentin




Location: Italy
Joined: 23 May 2014

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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jan, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, Mart, first thanks for the reply.

I have found references to the lameriam even earlier than yours. In 1241 the Paduan Lemizo di Menighini Ardenghi has left as heritage two lamerias, and in 1237 knights serving Ezzelino II da Romano were protected by such defences over their hauberk. These informations are taken from a book from Aldo Settia, which I don't have now, as soon as I recover it I am able to post the original documents.

In 1225 Treviso statutes say that communal notaries must have, among other pieces of armor, "panceriam vel coraciam", the former being a short-sleeved mail shirt, the latter probably similar to the lameria. In the same document people who want to perform some communal services were expected to have "panceriam vel coraciam sive lamam".

From the "Acta comunitas Tarvisii" in 1240, we have the citizen named Alberto del Turco who asks for compensation for his lost equipment, which includes "[...] unius pancerie cum capirono et duarum gamberiarum ad cingendum cum duabus aliis gamberiis et unius lamerie [...]". In another scroll in Treviso we read an inventory of Alberto Orfanello goods, including "[...]et in una mascara et in una lameria[...]".

There are other evidences of such term before 1250. There are even other terms, like corettum and the said above coraciam, which might have been defences similar to the lameria. So it is likely that such armor might have been quite common before 1250 even among infantrymen, especially in german area (most records of proto-plate armor are from german, even in north-east Italy where the da Romano ruled (that is why I wanted to do further researches in german written sources). The records of such armor are much more common as we approach to the end of the century, so it seems reasonable for me to make one for the second quarter of the century.

Unfortunately I don't think we have any reference on how such lameriam were made. I think it might me reasonable to make them in a similar way the Wisby CoP are made...but I don't want to make an hypotesisi without a solid research work, so I've started this topic.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jan, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

IMO any armour term that begins with "cor" is probably made of leather/hide (from the latin corium). Leather armour seems to have been more common in Italy than further north or west. The early references to lameria helps the argument that it is a scale/lamellar construction rather than a CoP. Gerald of Wales wrote about some of the Danes who attacked Dublin castle in 1171 wearing laminis ferreis arte consutis. Do we want to push the CoP back to the 12th century?
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jan, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On the concurrent thread, I gave the following.

On the leather cuirie, Claude Blair gives this:
Quote:
Another early body defence which should probably
be included under the heading of plate armour
was the cuirie. This term first appears in
texts of the third quarter of the 12th century
and occurs frequently until the middle of the
14th. It was almost certainly synonymous with
cuirass (also curate, quiret), a word first recorded
as paires de cuiraces in an inventory of the effects
of Eudes, Comte de Nevers, drawn up after
his death in 1266 and one that remained in use as long as armour did.



I am in full agreement that any armor with "cor" is likely to be some sort of leather defense, which has earlier citations as a supplement to mail, and is likely a completely different category than these "lameria". The Latin base of "lamina" simply denoting something made of thin strips or pieces. We have ample depictions of scale armors being worn over mail from the early and mid-13th century in Europe, and the earlier the reference, the more likely this is to be the source, as Dan has mentioned.

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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Jan, 2015 3:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
IMO any armour term that begins with "cor" is probably made of leather/hide (from the latin corium). Leather armour seems to have been more common in Italy than further north or west. The early references to lameria helps the argument that it is a scale/lamellar construction rather than a CoP. Gerald of Wales wrote about some of the Danes who attacked Dublin castle in 1171 wearing laminis ferreis arte consutis. Do we want to push the CoP back to the 12th century?

Just remember that there are also words derived from Latin corpus such as French corset, corselet and Italian corsetto and corsaletto. Francesco Datini preferred the spelling cosetto.

It would help if someone trained in medieval Romance languages would study these terms.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 11 Jan, 2015 1:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is an argument that the "cuirass" (and all of its variants) was so called because it was initially made from leather.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sun 11 Jan, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean is correct, as we see the corset as a corpus body armor rather than one of corium leather. After discussing the 13th century usage of corset on Armour Archive, it seems most likely to have been a sleeveless mail "vest".
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=153028

The Italian urban militia regulations are quite similar to the later London regulation, where several armor types worn over an aketon are considered equivalent in meeting the requirement of being "properly armed".
Quote:
Watch and Ward at the City Gates.

25 Edward I. A.D. 1297. Letter-Book B. fol. xxxiii. old numeration. (Latin.)

It was ordered that every bedel shall make summons by day in his own Ward, upon view of two good men, for setting watch at the Gates;—and that those so summoned shall come to the Gates in the day-time, and in the morning, at day-light, shall depart therefrom. And such persons are to be properly armed with two pieces; namely, with haketon and gambeson, or else with haketon and corset, or with haketon and plates.


The King's Mirror from c. 1250 calls for the breast plate of iron worn between gambeson and hauberk to go from nipples to waist-belt. Early plates may have offered very limited protection. A number of the armors recovered from the Battle of Wisby in 1361 had only frontal plates. Though it is conjectured that the wrapping plates covering the sides and back might have been torn off, it might be that they never existed. I am still unconvinced that these lameria are pairs of plates.

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 11 Jan, 2015 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
I am still unconvinced that these lameria are pairs of plates.

Scale armour would be the most likely interpretation.

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Sean Manning




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jan, 2015 3:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
There is an argument that the "cuirass" (and all of its variants) was so called because it was initially made from leather.

Yes, but cuirass and corset have different roots. One comes from the French word for “leather” (cuir < Latin corium) and one from the French word for “body” (corps < Latin corpus). If you don't know a language and its ancestors, it is always safest to look up etymologies in a dictionary.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2015 6:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 1322 inventory of Roger de Mortimer at Wigmore Castle includes
ij. paribus de plates
j. quirre
ij. paribus lameriorum


So a definite distinction between pairs of plates, curies, and "pairs of lames". This seems more-and-more likely to be the medieval term for scale armors.

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
The 1322 inventory of Roger de Mortimer at Wigmore Castle includes
ij. paribus de plates
j. quirre
ij. paribus lameriorum


So a definite distinction between pairs of plates, curies, and "pairs of lames". This seems more-and-more likely to be the medieval term for scale armors.

One source with all three items. Excellent.

It is interesting how the word "pair" has changed meaning. Today it means two matching items. At the time, the exact number didn't matter; it referred to a matching set of items. We still use the word in terms such as "comparable", "separate", and "disparate".

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Curious indeed. That said know terms are often rather fluid so I am not sure we can be sure Mart but here is sure seems to be looking like three distinct armours.

Could it be something other than scale or leather? I think pair of plates seems to be relatively solid for the most part from what I have seen.

Fantastic find.

RPM
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Back to Daniele's original question, there are the "Sleeping Guards" at the Round Chapel in Constance from around 1260-1300. Although there are rivets visible on the helms and kettle hats, there don't seem to be any carved on the body. Nevertheless, the form is so similar to that on the Maurice at Magdeburg that it seems they obviously represent pairs of plates.

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi06641g02a.jpg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi01850a03a.jpg

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Oct, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Curious indeed. That said know terms are often rather fluid so I am not sure we can be sure Mart but here is sure seems to be looking like three distinct armours.

Could it be something other than scale or leather? I think pair of plates seems to be relatively solid for the most part from what I have seen.

Fantastic find.

RPM


If it's not a pair of plates, and it's not a cuirie, but it has "lames" - thin metal strips, and it's in use in 1322 in Western Europe, I think the only other evidence supported by visual media would be scale armor.

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Bartek Strojek




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2015 1:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
IMO any armour term that begins with "cor" is probably made of leather/hide (from the latin corium). Leather armour seems to have been more common in Italy than further north or west. The early references to lameria helps the argument that it is a scale/lamellar construction rather than a CoP. Gerald of Wales wrote about some of the Danes who attacked Dublin castle in 1171 wearing laminis ferreis arte consutis. Do we want to push the CoP back to the 12th century?


Apparently there's at least one find that looks like very early Cop:

http://asmund-pgd.blogspot.com/2012/09/magdeb...wiety.html

Or at least intrpreted as such in

"Die Funde aus den Grabungen von Arkona auf Rügen in den Jahren 1969-1971" by Hans-Dieter Berlekamp


And dated at latest to 12th century.
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Daniele Trentin




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2015 5:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, thanks a lot for reviving this thread with such precious informations!

Mart, first of all thanks for the great pictures.

About the terms found in the inventory, it is curious that the word "lameriorum" is quite similar to the word found on Italian statutes, which is "lameria", and it is quite widely accepted to represent an armour with metal strips attached to a leather/cloth base like the one worn by St. Maurice in Magdeburg. We have also records of German knights during the battle of Benevento (1266) wearing armors over their hauberks (they may be lamerie but I'm not sure, I must get the source) causing great problems to their enemies...

Do you think that the "paribus de plates" and "quirre" refers to, respectively, a metal and leather defence? In Italy we have a similar case with the "corettum" and "corettum de fero": the "corettum" seeming a semi-rigid leather defence, quite commonly found in the first half of the XIII century...later (from about half of the century) it seems to evolve into the "corettum de fero"...it seems quite likely that it retained its shape and/or function, evolving into an iron armor...

I have now a question: can we connect such terms (lameria, pair of plates, cuirass or similar) to an existing armor without doubts? For the XIII century it is not possible as we have no evidences I'm aware of except mail...maybe in the XIV century (better if in the first half) we have something more..
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart,

I was just wondering if as Daniele posted it might be another type of Pair of plates build different or something. I'd love to see scale in text as there are a few examples in art and it looks cool. Nearing done with my scale aventail and thing it looks wonderful but just throwing another possible avenue out there.


Daniele,

Connect them without doubts... probably no. Not unless we have a clear description or an illustration with text stating this is X. But we can go through and do our best to look at what the could be meaning as best we can.

RPM
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
If it's not a pair of plates, and it's not a cuirie, but it has "lames" - thin metal strips, and it's in use in 1322 in Western Europe, I think the only other evidence supported by visual media would be scale armor.

Yep.

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Oct, 2015 8:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

Of course they could have had various terms for various types of pairs of plates. There are hauberks, haubergeons, and corsets all apparently made of mail, but varying in if they had hoods, or sleeves, etc.. I do hope this is the descriptor for scale armor, as we keep finding it in visual sources, and haven't got another term in the literature for it.

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