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Adam M.M.





Joined: 02 Aug 2014

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PostPosted: Mon 29 Dec, 2014 5:04 am    Post subject: Sword and dagger before the 1500s?         Reply with quote

Rapiers and sideswords seem to have been commonly paired with main gauche daggers but did this "fighting style" exist before them? I could imagine an arming sword or messer working quite well with a dagger but I've never seen or heard of them being used with one.
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M. Szewczyk





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PostPosted: Mon 29 Dec, 2014 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With rondel or bollock dagger, parring would be harder than with main gauche because of the lack of hand protection.
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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Dec, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Sword and dagger before the 1500s?         Reply with quote

Adam M.M. wrote:
Rapiers and sideswords seem to have been commonly paired with main gauche daggers but did this "fighting style" exist before them? I could imagine an arming sword or messer working quite well with a dagger but I've never seen or heard of them being used with one.


After a quick search I came up with nothing specific in terms of artwork or manuscripts. Although I believe either Fiore or Liechtenauer does mention the use of both together, if only briefly. I could be wrong though.

But I agree it would be a completely viable option. And I for one believe that this combination was used before 1500 as well as after. A quillon dagger would lend itself best for this set up, though any sort of dagger or knife would do the job. Including the rondel dagger held in "earth grip".

Maybe the masters of old deemed it unnecessary to elaborate on the topic since they already covered dagger individually, and sword and buckler as a pair?

Sir Dreamin'
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Dec, 2014 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albrecht Dürer shows Messer and dagger in his Οπλοδιδασκαλια (Albertina MS 26-232) - quite nifty techniques actually (see Dornhoffer's study) :

http://wiktenauer.com/images/8/85/MS_26-232_86r.png

Seeing how close Dürer is from previous sources (such as those now gathered in the so-called "Codex Wallerstein"), such combination of weapons is quite likely pre-1500.

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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In a similar vein I've found 14th c. artwork that shows a sword being used with a cloak wrapped around the hand. Heck, now that I think of it I vaguely recall a Viking era reference to somebody using a hand axe as a parrying weapon.

From a practical point of view sword and dagger is really good for dueling but in an environment where I might have to watch out for thrown weapons I'd probably opt for a buckler or shield.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Sword and dagger before the 1500s?         Reply with quote

Rim Andries wrote:
After a quick search I came up with nothing specific in terms of artwork or manuscripts. Although I believe either Fiore or Liechtenauer does mention the use of both together, if only briefly. I could be wrong though.


Fiore shows sword against dagger and vice-versa, not sword-and-dagger. None of the sources in the Liechtenauer tradition show sword-and-dagger either except as obvious borrowings from Italian rapier -- Sutor even uses Fabris/Capoferro-style nudes to illustrate this section of his manual! (Not the "Rappier" section proper, though, which would count as "side sword" instead of "rapier" under modern terminology.)
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Mike Ruhala




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

AFAIK there's not a lot of explicit instruction on sword and dagger in the currently known corpus but they were definitely familiar with the idea of wielding daggers and swords at the same time... in some cases they weren't just dual wielding either, they were triple wielding!

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Cod.I.6.2%C2%BA.1_8v.png

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ms.Thott.290.2º_078r.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ms.Thott.290.2º_119r.jpg
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Adam M.M.





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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
AFAIK there's not a lot of explicit instruction on sword and dagger in the currently known corpus but they were definitely familiar with the idea of wielding daggers and swords at the same time... in some cases they weren't just dual wielding either, they were triple wielding!

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Cod.I.6.2%C2%BA.1_8v.png

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ms.Thott.290.2º_078r.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ms.Thott.290.2º_119r.jpg


Those are some interesting pictures. The last one almost looks like some over-the-top Hollywood fight. Big Grin
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
In a similar vein I've found 14th c. artwork that shows a sword being used with a cloak wrapped around the hand.


Any chance you could share some of this artwork? I'd love to see it.

Éirinn go Brách
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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, once you know the basics of the system a lot of wild things are possible with KDF.

Here's an image of 14th c. sword and cloak,

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4750/11306/

Now I know it's not a fechtbuch but a lot of technique is recognizable in artwork, in this case the swordsman is standing in luginslant/tag, very similar to the fellow on the top/right of this image from Talhoffer,

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0002/bsb0...;seite=244

For arming sword and dagger I don't actually use much single dagger technique, instead I borrow heavily from sword technique. The dagger's all strong and about 1/3 the length of the sword so parrying works about the same even if you have to be a bit more precise, other than that I'd mostly be using the dagger against a full length sword which adjusts the timings and rhythms in the right way for it to work.
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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Sword and dagger before the 1500s?         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Rim Andries wrote:
After a quick search I came up with nothing specific in terms of artwork or manuscripts. Although I believe either Fiore or Liechtenauer does mention the use of both together, if only briefly. I could be wrong though.


Fiore shows sword against dagger and vice-versa, not sword-and-dagger. None of the sources in the Liechtenauer tradition show sword-and-dagger either except as obvious borrowings from Italian rapier -- Sutor even uses Fabris/Capoferro-style nudes to illustrate this section of his manual! (Not the "Rappier" section proper, though, which would count as "side sword" instead of "rapier" under modern terminology.)


I stand corrected Wink Thanks for clarifying! Now I can see how I came up with Fiore. Still not sure why I said Liechtenauer...

Sir Dreamin'
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Rim Andries




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Sword and dagger before the 1500s?         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Rim Andries wrote:
After a quick search I came up with nothing specific in terms of artwork or manuscripts. Although I believe either Fiore or Liechtenauer does mention the use of both together, if only briefly. I could be wrong though.


Fiore shows sword against dagger and vice-versa, not sword-and-dagger. None of the sources in the Liechtenauer tradition show sword-and-dagger either except as obvious borrowings from Italian rapier -- Sutor even uses Fabris/Capoferro-style nudes to illustrate this section of his manual! (Not the "Rappier" section proper, though, which would count as "side sword" instead of "rapier" under modern terminology.)


I stand corrected Wink Thanks for clarifying! Now I can see how I came up with Fiore. Still not sure why I said Liechtenauer...

Sir Dreamin'
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Mark Griffin




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2014 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Here's an image of 14th c. sword and cloak,

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4750/11306/


Thanks for that, very nice. We can all see how useful that technique was against certain weapons.....

'I shall defeat you with my cloak and... oh bugger'

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