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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Dec, 2014 4:20 am    Post subject: Demo for the first annual members' cutting test event         Reply with quote

We're running the first annual members' cutting test event, emphasizing on "minimal effort" in the cuts. I performed the demo so they will have an idea on the goal. The demo was done with 2.5" rolls with gloves on.

http://youtu.be/He5n97x2MjA

The demo was performed with the John Lundemo-made DS sword.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Jan, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8ivROsVWE
Student Eric cutting a 3.5" roll.

http://youtu.be/TiUKL3bkd1M
Yau's attempt with his cold steel great sword.

http://youtu.be/ex7Auuiizik
Keith's attempt with his hanwei tinker longsword

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ0ITlljWcg
Fion and her Ching Dao.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VNBtFwyZg
Henry with his katana.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWq6np9DT14
Old ghost with his han jian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFAyP3b93Hw
Taku with his cold steel grosse messer.

http://youtu.be/GbHAhcfTPuY
Mk Tang with cold steel grosse messer

http://youtu.be/AwA7gI8q0Tg
Wing Li with katana

http://youtu.be/VjzkG_nQVng
Hiu Tung Chan with cold steel groose messer

http://youtu.be/t9KV11FAA_w
Chan Desun with miao dao

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2015 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/C7ulgvpBmxA
Eric Tang and his kris cutlery chinese jian.

http://youtu.be/cOVQqBhti70
I tried out the Alvin DS for small cuts.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXOCgSH0S8Q
Yue and his cold steel grosse messer.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/VR0-B9tzETg
Maxwell and the super sharp miao dao. (considered a cheating sword, for it cuts way too easy to be realistic for a battle-ready sword)

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2015 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/y0C-oTCB5mY
Desun using his own hanwei tinker longsword

http://youtu.be/WerPsiddU6s
Keith using the cheating miao dao

http://youtu.be/hX5_79Kr2GQ
Yau using the cheating miao dao, and then switch to his tactical wakizashi

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Michael Beeching





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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The performance of the jian really surprised me - I did not expect such a light weapon (what I'd consider the equivalent of, say, a later side sword in comparison to European weapons) to move so effortlessly through a target.

In the end, low moment of inertia + high acceleration = quite a bite!
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2015 10:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Beeching wrote:
The performance of the jian really surprised me - I did not expect such a light weapon (what I'd consider the equivalent of, say, a later side sword in comparison to European weapons) to move so effortlessly through a target.

In the end, low moment of inertia + high acceleration = quite a bite!


It's a flat diamond geometry with my sharpening. Big Grin The key was that it's not totally like the side sword. A Chinese weapon balanced differently, with a lot more blade presence. Plus the way we cut also helps. When he was cutting with single hand, he put body weight into the cut as effortlessly as he could.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jan, 2015 2:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/iyvu-zM7OhE
Mk's second attempt with his cold steel grosse messer, using more body weight this time.

http://youtu.be/Kn97qLIQZTE
Dicky and his cold steel hand and a half sword.

http://youtu.be/yyAZF975XhA
Hon wing and his katana's second attempt.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Jan, 2015 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/UXs7e7tDO6Q
Edwin and the cheater miao dao

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/y7VsDRGuS4w
Dung cut with his huanuo dao.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/mLSa4axQdV8
Tse Tsz Tun with his hanwei Chinese Dao

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Jan, 2015 5:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A few comments: Firstly the cutting by your students seems to have improved and many of the cuts look very clean with fewer partially cut flying targets.

Note: I'm only judging this stuff from a theoretical point of view as I have never done any real cutting with challenging materials and only did the easy stuff with pumpkins that one can cut even with a dull training sword.

I notice that most seem to wear their heavy hand protection for test cutting, and I wonder why ? Cutting the way they train with gloves ? A lot of the hand protections looks bulky and not do anything positive with dexterity.


And now a few questions about Daos in general: They seem to be very efficient cutters, but I recently purchased a Kris Cutlery Dao and I'm curious if you have seen or handled one before.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...y+Song+Dao

The edge was very good and easily paper cutting sharp as I received it, and now even sharper with just a few passes with a diamond hone.

Compared to my European swords the handling and forward balance seems much greater and takes some getting used to, assuming that the Kris Cutlery Dao is typical of a good handling Dao.

I have a theory that handling can be very variable without it being something negative because a heavy blade forward presence can be what one wants with certain types of swords.

I also think that the more swords of varying presence qualities that one has handled the more it becomes easy adapting to the sword than judging the presence as good or bad, unless the presence goes contrary to the design characteristics of a specific type of sword.

Different handling does influence the way one moves a sword, technique, tactics and the recovery being done by sudden stops versus using circular motions using acquired momentum rather than fighting the momentum.

By the way for an inexpensive Dao the Kris Cutlery Dao seems to have a very good differentially heat treated sword with a real hamon for the primary edge, The short false edge is not sharpened and has a 1.5 mm edge, the soft back of the blade means that this false edge if sharpened would be sort of soft compared to the main edge.


The blade finish is close to mirror finish, the fullers are well defined and geometrically perfect, the blade also has no ripples in the surface and grind lines clean and sharply defined.

The handle furniture is of brass or of some mystery metal that has been antiqued, but there is no information confirming that they are of brass. The only flaw was that the scabbard furniture was loose and some super glue easily fixed this.

The wooden handle and scabbard has a nice figure and might be some type of teak, but I'm not sure.

One handling aspect of the handle is that it's smooth and a bit slippery and might be better with some sort of carved in checkering or grooves.
According to info from the Kris Cutlery site the main edge is hardened to around 60 r.c. and the back and body of the blade is closer to 35 / 40 r.c which is sort of spring temper and not dead soft, but too soft for sharpening I think.

So I guess my post also turned into an informal review of the Kris Cutlery Song Dao and wanting your honest opinion about it plus anything about Daos you might want to add. Wink Big Grin Cool

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Jan, 2015 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello. The students were encouraged to cut with whatever gears they would wear during sparring, to more accurately simulate the effect of their minimal effort cuts. Yes, those gears get into the way and may produce negative effects. That's the point of practicing with them on to see how they would fare under such situation.

I've handled that model of Dao before, though the one I handled was made in Lung Chuan of China. This particular Dao is very heavy for its size. It's indeed heavier than most other Chinese single handed Dao I've used. So if you found it heavy too, I won't be surprised. It's also very stiff and heavy hitting.

Most Dao, even if broader around the tip portion, would not weight that much still. There are several designs of Dao around. The broader one would be thinner, and the narrower one would be thicker. The broader one would also feel heavier and more substantial around the tip, even though the thickness is less. The width made up of most of its presence.

When using such forward balance swords, the user actually has to do "less" to make it work. Since the blade itself would lend you power, you don't need to power it much yourself. I use my fingers to do the triggering for my attacks, and let DS's weight and momentum to finish off the work. If you try to use a Chinese sword with the European way, you would find that it's "not going to be very obedient", not stopping when you wants it to stop, and not going when you want it to go. Thus you may end up using a lot more power in getting them to speed, and in trying to stop them. In fact, they are not used the same way. When you think on the "minimal approach", the heavy swords make sense. Because it's gonna lend you the power you need in a cut, and you would find that it saved you effort actually from actually powering it through the cuts. On the contrary, speedy and agile swords that a collector usually like, would be quite difficult to use when it comes to "minimal effort cutting", because the user have to give plenty power for it to go through a challenging target.

More effort means more tensing up and telegraphing. Thus it means a lesser chance to hit a living opponent. That's the point for minimal effort attacks. They were very silent in motion and have a much higher hit rate.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
A few comments: Firstly the cutting by your students seems to have improved and many of the cuts look very clean with fewer partially cut flying targets.

Note: I'm only judging this stuff from a theoretical point of view as I have never done any real cutting with challenging materials and only did the easy stuff with pumpkins that one can cut even with a dull training sword.

I notice that most seem to wear their heavy hand protection for test cutting, and I wonder why ? Cutting the way they train with gloves ? A lot of the hand protections looks bulky and not do anything positive with dexterity.


And now a few questions about Daos in general: They seem to be very efficient cutters, but I recently purchased a Kris Cutlery Dao and I'm curious if you have seen or handled one before.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...y+Song+Dao

The edge was very good and easily paper cutting sharp as I received it, and now even sharper with just a few passes with a diamond hone.

Compared to my European swords the handling and forward balance seems much greater and takes some getting used to, assuming that the Kris Cutlery Dao is typical of a good handling Dao.

I have a theory that handling can be very variable without it being something negative because a heavy blade forward presence can be what one wants with certain types of swords.

I also think that the more swords of varying presence qualities that one has handled the more it becomes easy adapting to the sword than judging the presence as good or bad, unless the presence goes contrary to the design characteristics of a specific type of sword.

Different handling does influence the way one moves a sword, technique, tactics and the recovery being done by sudden stops versus using circular motions using acquired momentum rather than fighting the momentum.

By the way for an inexpensive Dao the Kris Cutlery Dao seems to have a very good differentially heat treated sword with a real hamon for the primary edge, The short false edge is not sharpened and has a 1.5 mm edge, the soft back of the blade means that this false edge if sharpened would be sort of soft compared to the main edge.


The blade finish is close to mirror finish, the fullers are well defined and geometrically perfect, the blade also has no ripples in the surface and grind lines clean and sharply defined.

The handle furniture is of brass or of some mystery metal that has been antiqued, but there is no information confirming that they are of brass. The only flaw was that the scabbard furniture was loose and some super glue easily fixed this.

The wooden handle and scabbard has a nice figure and might be some type of teak, but I'm not sure.

One handling aspect of the handle is that it's smooth and a bit slippery and might be better with some sort of carved in checkering or grooves.
According to info from the Kris Cutlery site the main edge is hardened to around 60 r.c. and the back and body of the blade is closer to 35 / 40 r.c which is sort of spring temper and not dead soft, but too soft for sharpening I think.

So I guess my post also turned into an informal review of the Kris Cutlery Song Dao and wanting your honest opinion about it plus anything about Daos you might want to add. Wink Big Grin Cool

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan, 2015 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/sptOQMD2yr8
Yue and his cold steel grosse messer on second attempt.

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
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