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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,429

PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: whats the deal with those fancy 'teutonic' winged helmets?         Reply with quote

title says it all really.
i'm talking about things like http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Js-13O2gscw/maxresdefault.jpg this

http://i.testfreaks.com/images/products/600x4...241838.jpg or this (yes i know the greathelm design is all over the map..)

helmets like those are constantly shown as being used by the teutonic order in popular art , why does everyone keep assuming they used them and is there any truth to it?
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Reading list: 56 books

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think that they are too far fetched,but not in battle. It seems that artists and game developers have just applied the crests used in tourneys in their works to make them more appealing to the masses. They definitely look cool.
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2014 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blame Sergei Eisenstein's propagandist Alexander Nevsky from 1938 coupled with the Manesse Codex's depiction of Tannhäuser.





ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Raman A




Location: United States
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Phil mentioned they're most likely based on tournament crests.


http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4373/7053/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4121/8440/
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,429

PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil D. wrote:
I don't think that they are too far fetched,but not in battle. It seems that artists and game developers have just applied the crests used in tourneys in their works to make them more appealing to the masses. They definitely look cool.


and ominous and intimidating, the designers chose a very ominous tone for the baltic campaign between the teutons and their neighbours. and the teutons themselves are definately given the feeling of being something dark and brutal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuMl17nWz4E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV83jLZqnOY like these two game trailers very clearly demonstrate

i also heard but wasnt sure, that the teutons being a religous knightly order might not have allowed their members to ornement their armour too much
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec, 2014 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All of the monastic military orders regulated the appearance of their brothers in an attempt to enforce piety. No personal adornment, rich clothing, personal arms, etc. were allowed. On the other hand, the fact that such prohibitions are continually passed and updated seems to indicate some monks were always pushing the limits. The medieval stereotypical parody of monks being overfed, over-sexed, and drunk undoubtedly has some basis in fact. Likewise, the RC Church banned tournaments routinely throughout the 12th and 13th centuries due to both the risk of strife among Christians, but also the party culture surrounding the events. But tournaments were continually held, even under the threat of excommunication. People don't always obey the rules.

There was some allowance for Masters and perhaps other leaders to show their status with some display, so it's possible that crests might have appeared on the helms of the Order's commanders. Despite the assertion that crests were only used in tournament, there are a number of battle depictions where crests are sometimes seen.

Still, I suspect the majority of brothers wore plain and unadorned helmets.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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