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Lee Pupo




Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 30 Mar 2014

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Patinated bluing? Already? Rust, even?         Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

I must have made some kind of grave error last Sunday when I put the Town Guard away before heading to university for the week. I applied a light coat of Ballistol with a t-shirt to the sword's guard and blade before I left, and now, upon returning, I have found that the once dark (near black) bluing has gone to a shade of purple on the quillons and central part of the knucklebow. There are even a couple tiny orange spots of rust (circled)! Interestingly enough, I could not find any color change on the top of the pommel, where it would touch the hand. I handled the sword with and without a glove (the glove has never been near any kind of leather treatment), but I thought that carefully oiling the thing would be enough! It was stored in a bedroom (dry air; it is winter here and I do not have a humidifier in the house) with a piece of the light sort of tissue paper found in bags for gifts gently laying on top (not tucked in, no sealing effect at all) to prevent dust. I'm baffled that simple handing would produce such results so quickly (and on areas so far from the actual grip and the cross where the finger actually wraps around). I do not believe that anyone in my family handled it when I was gone. What did I do wrong? What should I do now? Thanks for all your help.

Lee

EDIT: It may be hard to see, but the bits of rust are orange like a copper wire.



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Greg Ballantyne




Location: Maryland USA
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
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Posts: 233

PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps the best moisture repellant/rust preventative I use right now is Lanox. I heard about it on this website. Its an Australia/NZ product containing lanolin. I used to rely on gun oil, but the Lanox has some serious hang time. Its not easily found in the USA, I ordered from some lawnmower supply in Florida, and paid what seemed like a lot, but I believe it was well worth it.
I am not speaking to your particular situation, just making a general comment. There are existing threads on this website that deal with this subject, one of which I learned about Lanox from.....
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Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Non-lanolin based oils (like ballistol, wd40, breakfreeCLP, etc...) will ruin cold bluing. It will over time if you oil enough and properly remove the bluing and make what remains grayish in color, until ultimately all the bluing is gone and what is left is a milky clouded steel beneath that needs polishing to look regular.
If you don't oil enough it will turn the bluing purple or simply rust it, which is what happened to you.
Ballistol is a good product if you want a very safe oil and handle everyday your sword and reapply everyday the oil, i found that any extended amount of time and it will not cut it ( over 1 week and expect oxidation in humid climate, 3 weeks if its hot and dry ). Seems your house is more humid than you though, that or there was a source of humidity close by.

I recommend Fluid Film, but any lanolin based product will work.

If you can't get your hands on one, don't apply any oil, just wipe vigorously after use, and that's it. The bluing resists rusting, as long as nothing is interfering with it, so just the bluing by itself cleanly wiped will be enough.

Good luck.
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Lee Pupo




Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 30 Mar 2014

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hector A. wrote:
Non-lanolin based oils (like ballistol, wd40, breakfreeCLP, etc...) will ruin cold bluing. It will over time if you oil enough and properly remove the bluing and make what remains grayish in color, until ultimately all the bluing is gone and what is left is a milky clouded steel beneath that needs polishing to look regular.
If you don't oil enough it will turn the bluing purple or simply rust it, which is what happened to you.
Ballistol is a good product if you want a very safe oil and handle everyday your sword and reapply everyday the oil, i found that any extended amount of time and it will not cut it ( over 1 week and expect oxidation in humid climate, 3 weeks if its hot and dry ). Seems your house is more humid than you though, that or there was a source of humidity close by.

I recommend Fluid Film, but any lanolin based product will work.

If you can't get your hands on one, don't apply any oil, just wipe vigorously after use, and that's it. The bluing resists rusting, as long as nothing is interfering with it, so just the bluing by itself cleanly wiped will be enough.

Good luck.


Wow, thank you very much Hector. This is clearly my fault. I was not ready for the challenge of taking care of high carbon steel. This has been a harsh lesson, but one that I won't forget. It's interesting how the blade was perfectly fine, though. Not a spot on it. Maybe the guard just wasn't oiled enough?
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Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 12:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My above post might not have been clear because of the second part.

DO NOT APPLY REGULAR OIL ON COLD BLUING!

Instead use only Lanolin based oils like : Lanox or Fluid Film.

You CAN use ballistol on the blade, just don't put any on the pommel and complex guard, because it is cold blued.

For the time being only wipe down the pommel and guard with a dry lint free cloth if you handled the sword, apply oil to the blade regularly.

Once you have a lanolin based oil you can apply it on everything without fear.

Hope i was clearer this time and don't be so sad about having lost a little bluing, you will learn to take care of your sword better from this point on.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 1:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also Lee, if you use your sword to cut meat be prepared that a high carbon blade will be stained. There are two ways to get around this; the easiest is to simply not cut meat. Alternatively, you can purchase very fine sandpaper (around 1000 or 1200 grit) and use it to sand out the staining.

Thought you might want to know- I was surprised when my Albion Knight was stained after one cutting session.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,237

PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 3:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as cutting goes, some targets stain the blade extremely quickly and you can't help it, you can only polish them out... Mostly vegetable juices are pretty strong...
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Craig Johnson
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Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 7:48 am    Post subject: Rust prevention and info         Reply with quote

Hi Lee

Sorry to hear you have had rust issues. The blued/blackened surface on this hilt is a commercial black oxide finish. This is the same type of finish as on a firearm. This is more substantial and not as susceptible as a cold blued finish but it will fade over time with wear and oil interaction. I would use a piece of Tshirt and some oil and with your finger nail rub the active rust to remove it. This usually works for small flecks.

The lanolin based oils are a good idea.

Here is a link from a pal of mine that has done some interesting tests on how different products help or hurt with rust prevention. Cumann Bhata Articles there are Protecting Against Rust: Part I thru IV that cover some real world tests.

Best
Craig
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Lee Pupo




Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 30 Mar 2014

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Rust prevention and info         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
Hi Lee

Sorry to hear you have had rust issues. The blued/blackened surface on this hilt is a commercial black oxide finish. This is the same type of finish as on a firearm. This is more substantial and not as susceptible as a cold blued finish but it will fade over time with wear and oil interaction. I would use a piece of Tshirt and some oil and with your finger nail rub the active rust to remove it. This usually works for small flecks.

The lanolin based oils are a good idea.

Here is a link from a pal of mine that has done some interesting tests on how different products help or hurt with rust prevention. Cumann Bhata Articles there are Protecting Against Rust: Part I thru IV that cover some real world tests.

Best
Craig


Craig,

Thanks a lot for replying. I was actually just getting around to giving you guys a call to say that I appreciated this sword very much.

At any rate, I see now that Ballistol is bad for bluing. This has not been my experience with blued guns (from military mausers to modern CZ rifles), but I will take your word on a sword that your company made. What do you recommend to maintain bluing? Simply wiping it with a dry cloth as suggested above?

Also, does this guy get away with soaking his guns in ballistol because he wipes it away? He trusts ballistol as much as I did for protecting bluing.

Link: http://youtu.be/8wPPUXU3Lhc?t=7m58s

It makes perfect sense to "have to" put ballistol on the working areas of the pistol, but the outside, not so much. Thanks again for your advice and for a truly wonderful sword.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You probably would have done better to not apply anything to the hilt at all. People go crazy thinking they have to care for these things as if they are infants. They aren't. The purpose of the blued finish is to provide a hilt surface that requires less maintenance than white metal. Take advantage of this. Happy
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Ballantyne wrote:
Perhaps the best moisture repellant/rust preventative I use right now is Lanox. I heard about it on this website. Its an Australia/NZ product containing lanolin. I used to rely on gun oil, but the Lanox has some serious hang time. Its not easily found in the USA, I ordered from some lawnmower supply in Florida, and paid what seemed like a lot, but I believe it was well worth it.


Bingo.

Other brands include Lanotec and Lanoguard. I've heard Fluid Film is similar and easier to get in the US, but I'd want to check what other additives it might have before using it over one of the 'Lano-' products.

I've said it in other threads, but another great thing about lanolin-based oils is that they're also safe for grips and the outside - and inside - of scabbards, both leather and wood. Some mineral-based oils are not good for either; it's nice to just be able to use the one rag to treat the entire sword and scabbard.

And, if you have all-leather scabbards/sheaths, you can use the tip that John Lundemo offered some years back: just soak the entire sheath in the lanolin oil, and it will act to preserve both the leather and the blade. You don't need to submerse the sheath; just put it point-down into a glass jar and pour lots of lanolin-based oil down the throat. Rotate the sheath so that all internal surfaces are coated. Eventually, you'll reach saturation point and the oil will come through to the outside of the leather.

The next part is critical: immediately transfer the shealth to another glass jar, upside-down, so that any excess lanolin can drain back out of the sheath. If you don't, it will solidify into a very sticky gum-like substance, which can not only then stick to the blade and be hard to remove, but also bind the sword inside the scabbard. However, if you drain properly, especially if you do this in the sun, you should have no problems.

Note that this method will usually make the leather darker than it originally was, and might also make some dye run/lift off, so you might want to order your sheath in a lighter initial colour, and use gloves to handle it. It's also worth getting lots of paper towels and rubbing off the excess dye as you go.

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Greg Ballantyne




Location: Maryland USA
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good point about the scabbards and other leather, Mark. I have found in the past that a non-historical scabbard (no sheep pile lining) can trap moisture and rust a blade that stays in that scabbard for a length of time. Lanox in a leather only scabbard allows a blade to stay in the scabbard for extended periods of time with no risk. I have sprayed Lanox into more than one scabbard, and on the outside of them as well. Like I said, the lanolin based products are the best I have used on blades and furniture, and truck door hinges as well....

Lee, you might want to consider getting hold of a bottle of chemical bluing to use as touch up from time to time. Good for firearms, knives, and perhaps a Town Guard hilt at some point. While I would not recommend using chemical bluing as a means of bluing an item, it is handy for touch up of the occasional spots that may come into the picture when incidental rust that may form is removed.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,836

PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 10:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Ballantyne wrote:
Good point about the scabbards and other leather, Mark. I have found in the past that a non-historical scabbard (no sheep pile lining) can trap moisture and rust a blade that stays in that scabbard for a length of time. Lanox in a leather only scabbard allows a blade to stay in the scabbard for extended periods of time with no risk. I have sprayed Lanox into more than one scabbard, and on the outside of them as well. Like I said, the lanolin based products are the best I have used on blades and furniture, and truck door hinges as well....

Lee, you might want to consider getting hold of a bottle of chemical bluing to use as touch up from time to time. Good for firearms, knives, and perhaps a Town Guard hilt at some point. While I would not recommend using chemical bluing as a means of bluing an item, it is handy for touch up of the occasional spots that may come into the picture when incidental rust that may form is removed.

It really depends on the leather of a plain scabbard and reasonable care. I have had several A&A plain leather scabbards on swords for more than a decade with zero issues. As well, leather scabbards more than 200 years old, one blade blue&gilt that lives in the scabbard on a rack. I check them now and then and just keep them dry and finger print free.

One scabbard of another source was rusting edges and it was either chrome tanned leather, dye or glue. It is either a Tinker or Gus shop (ATrim) scabbard. I hosed down the inside with silicone spray and have had no issue with it since. My only knives not in their sheaths are those in a glass case.

Overall, I prefer clean and dry. I made the mistake of leaving some spears in my station wagon for a couple of weeks. Low and behold, the only one that didn't rust was my two wood paint stirrers special on an expensive slim blade (I was lucky).

Oil gathers dust, dust on oil wicks moisture.

Cheers

GC
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Raman A




Location: United States
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sun 16 Nov, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Other people have already recommended fluid film, and I'm going to concur. Check out this experiment:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=170738
http://www.customchainmail.com/2014/05/29/fin...n-test-v2/

Quote:
Fluid Film
The winner, but with some drawbacks.
Fluid Film won the overall rust challenge, and had some other pluses going for it. It smells the best, and (as I understand it) it is the most natural and safe. It has also been suggested that it is most consistent with what could have been used in the middle ages, which may be important to some. It is also a little cheaper than the other two, and a little easier to get locally for me (I live in Fort Lauderdale).
The downside is that it leaves a very oily feel, which some may not like.
Overall, it is a very good choice and will likely be what I use for my personal maille.


Not only was it the best performing, but it's lanolin-based so it's safe for your bluing, is non-toxic and has little smell.

I'd also like to throw wax out there as an alternative to oil since no one else has mentioned it.
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