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Charles B McFadden




Location: Houston
Joined: 12 May 2013

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: What kind of sword to use in modern times?         Reply with quote

If you live in the U.S or Europe, you will never use a sword on someone, it's just a hobby here for people who mostly would run from any kind of fight like this. I'm fully aware of this.

However, there seems to be a resurgence of large blade usage in 3rd world countries. Lots of people are getting hacked to death by machetes in Brazil for instance. Some 3rd world countries regularly see large bladed weapons used in murders.

Nobody wears armor, so any sword would be against a person probably wearing light clothing.

What type of Oakshott sword classification, would best shine in these attacks in these environments?
What kind of old world sword would take it's place right along side the machete if it were available like the machete?
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Absolutely type X swords. Type X on the lighter side would be chosen I think.
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Charles B McFadden




Location: Houston
Joined: 12 May 2013

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher B Lellis wrote:
Absolutely type X swords. Type X on the lighter side would be chosen I think.


Does anyone make a good example of these? Can you link me some?
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Ben Coomer




Location: Colorado
Joined: 06 Sep 2011

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A Type XIV would be my first choice.

Great cutter, decent stabber,. Not too bulky so carrying it around isn't hard. Its also pretty fast and maneuverable.
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Charles B McFadden wrote:
Christopher B Lellis wrote:
Absolutely type X swords. Type X on the lighter side would be chosen I think.


Does anyone make a good example of these? Can you link me some?


Yeah, but swords like these cannot compete against a machete that cost 5 dollars to make made in china or a lawnmower blade someone broke off and sharpened. But they would fit the role, if that's what you are asking.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...eeve-x.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...dhjalt.htm

http://armor.com/sword236.html
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Coomer wrote:
A Type XIV would be my first choice.

Great cutter, decent stabber,. Not too bulky so carrying it around isn't hard. Its also pretty fast and maneuverable.


Ha, funny you mention that, I have been itching for a The Sovereign from albion.
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Ben Coomer




Location: Colorado
Joined: 06 Sep 2011

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@ Christopher

Same here. Or a Yeoman. Every time I look, I change my mind.

In the meantime, Windlasses Type XIV is a decent stand in.
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Edward Lee




Location: New York
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

Posts: 313

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 9:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure which category of oakshott katzbalger falls into, but this kind of sword is a pretty really good short side arm. A big messer would be good too.
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Coomer wrote:
@ Christopher

Same here. Or a Yeoman. Every time I look, I change my mind.

In the meantime, Windlasses Type XIV is a decent stand in.


I just looked that Windlass sword up. Is it functional? 189 bucks, not bad at all if it's good quality.
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Ben Coomer




Location: Colorado
Joined: 06 Sep 2011

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher B Lellis wrote:
Ben Coomer wrote:
@ Christopher

Same here. Or a Yeoman. Every time I look, I change my mind.

In the meantime, Windlasses Type XIV is a decent stand in.


I just looked that Windlass sword up. Is it functional? 189 bucks, not bad at all if it's good quality.


Oh yes. Wife and I have one each and they are nice swords.

Note that its not perfect. Ours needed a bit of rounding of the cross so they'd be more comfortable, and I need to make my hilt a little more suited for my hand.

But for the price, I have zero complaints.
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Leelund K





Joined: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 70

PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 11:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

CAS Iberia has an article on their "Tactical Katana" which claims that soldiers encountered people using swords in the Middle East.

http://casiberia.com/img/art/pdf/ki-nov11_tactical.pdf

Also, I have heard of stories of people using swords to chase the bad guys away. Swords become more useful in places where guns are harder to come by, which includes Europe and parts of the US. Do a quick google search to look up examples. Quite a few of them have video.

To your original question...
If we're talking about having light clothing...I would actually want a quick cut and thrust type blade with an emphasis on the thrust. When we're talking about t-shirts, snapping cuts made from the wrist are sufficient to end a fight.
In unarmored combat, I think agility and speed are most important. Range is also nice to have, but range has to be balanced by portability. Also, I don't think you want to run around with the sword in hand, so a blade length that you can quickly draw out of the sheath is important. I think something neutral in handling, that allows for quick direction changes works best. People tend to move pretty quickly when they're in shorts and a t-shirt.

I'm personally in favor of a type XV. It's not the best cutter, but I think it's plenty good against anything you could run into. Also, if by chance you run into modern military gear, thrusts to the face would probably better than cuts to gear designed for light shrapnel. I don't know how effective swords, even dedicated cutters, are against body armor, which is not that hard/expensive to get your hands on.

Given your examples though, I'd look for a good spear. Machete wouldn't touch you in a fight, plus, you could use it for hunting and as a general survival tool, especially if you mod it with para-cord wrap, duck tape a fire starter to it, etc. Also it's much cheaper.

Just as a wild card for discussion...how about the Patton Saber? It was developed without any armor in mind. I'd imagine it'd be better than a machete. Question
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For versatility and functionality I'll take a machete too. I just made half a dozen spear shafts using nothing but a sharp machete to whittle them to shape and sandpaper to finish them off. The same blade can easily shear through a pig's thigh bone.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Herbert Schmidt




Location: Austria / Europe
Joined: 21 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Basically the best sword would be the one you are trained with.

Then it all breaks down to the circumstances:
• Do you have to carry it around? … something light, small and short
• Do you have to deal with authorities afterwards? … something that is not primarily a weapon.
• Do you have to defend your home? … something that works indoors as well, so rather short
• Do you have to be socially accepted? … something concealed
and so on.

Most thoughts would lead to a machete, because it is cheap, disposable, legally in a grey area and still can do heavy damage. So train with a machete and be on the safe side.

If it has to be a sword, I'd go for sword and buckler. Easy to carry, great offensive and defensive potential, usable indoors.
I'd be going for a Type XIV like the Yeaoman from Albion:
http://www.albion-europe.com/swords/swords-by...x?model=77

Just my thoughts

Herbert

www.arsgladii.at
Historical European Martial Arts
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 2:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

for the streets of an orban area, id like a nice leaf blade or something portable like a a gladius or xiphos. or even a slightly undersized messer,

if we want to include eastern blades, i would diefinately suggest butterfly swords, range isnt the best but you have two of them and they would be very good in close confines,m not to mention the knuckle bow allows for punching and striking in addition to the chopping.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, 3rd world machete, short sword or big knife fights are similar to some historical situations. For example, civil self defence in 14th century Europe when swords became more available to the middle class and more sword crimes happened in towns resulted in sword and buckler fighting, so that would surely serve well in similar situations today. Swords best suited for this are XIV's, XV's and maybe lighter XII's. 17th and later centuries in Japan also saw quite a lot civil area fights so katana of that period is also well suited for such situations... Cutlasses of course too, messers, hangers, basically anything middle sized and with decent cut and thrust abilities...
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Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If anything can be used and the thickest defense is something like bikers equipment then without a shadow of a doubt type XII sword and buckler.

Type XII is longer then a XIV and cuts better at the tip giving it an longer effective range, it is less maneuverable however. I would not pick a type X because they are incapable of thrusting material effectively if it is thick enough, and it also cuts clothing less effectively at the tip then the XII.

If size is a problem then the type XIV is better. If space and portability is a problem i would completely ignore the buckler and medieval sword all together and go for something with hand protection, like a law enforcement saber which are far shorter then cavalry and infantry sabers ( rapiers altogether on foot are better but far to long and like we said we are now constricted by size and portability issues or we would still be talking about bucklers ).

Law enforcement saber still to long and cumbersome? Then we move down to messers, shorter, "typically" less powerful in the cut than LE sabers, less hand protection.

Has to be concealed? Bowie knife

Legal issues? Camping/Survival knife (Bowie illegal in many countries in Europe due to its intended use and size).

Still legal issues because you can't prove you belong to a camping club/guild/whatever... KITCHEN KNIFE.

And that's basically it, in the most extreme cases your best option is a big kitchen knife preferably one where that blade is thick at the back so your hands don't slip and cut yourself on it. ( Beware certain countries a certain length of kitchen knife is now illegal also )

I don't agree with the general laws in the USA about weapons, i think citizens have access to way to powerful weapons, but i think the laws in Europe are even more ridiculous, where in many countries even a simple kitchen knife over a certain length is now illegal... A middle ground as always is what would be best.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the best way to make guesses would be to examine what items and weapons were carried day to day in urban historical situations/ situations that demanded that the weapon be used in tight press spaces

in japan, the katana or a kodachi, a daisho if you were a samurai. in addition, add to it other more unusual items like mankirigusari etc

in italy, the cinquedea became very popular
in addition i remember reading that italian cities had it so that weapons above a certain length were either banned to the lower classes OR you needed to pay a tax/ fee/ hand it over to the authorities for your stay if it was beyond a certain length/ you possessed a sword.

the result being that those in the cities would carry daggers as long as possible. with enough length to be able to effectively parry larger weapons like side swords
however i cannot with ANY certainty confirm how true or not that is.

however it just dawned on me, are we making use of the full range of modern techniques and design opossibilities in this discussion?
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Reading list: 56 books

Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An XIV or even better the Oakeshott XVI.4...

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ding+Sword

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Juan Federico Gonzalez




Location: NW Arkansas
Joined: 18 May 2014
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think that a sword would be very useful in a more modern country.

If you're worried about getting attacked by a maniacal machete wielding criminal carry a cane. A good hard wood cane. Made from hickory, oak, ash or whatever wood that is just as tough as any of those in which ever part of the world that you live. No blades no spikes or ninja fantasy chains. That's just asking to be shot by the police.


If you really want an edged weapon carry a machete, like a couple of the other members suggested. They're cheap easy to dump if you're running and in the situations that you described, perfect. That's why those other fellas are using them

One of the most horrible features of war is that all the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.

George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia
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Charles B McFadden




Location: Houston
Joined: 12 May 2013

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seems to me like X or XIV would be most suited. I don't think most people would use a sword to thrust though, even if it had a perfectly capable design for it. It seems that instinctively for defense or attack when someone uses a large bladed weapon, they start wildly hacking with. So edge use seems more natural.

From what I have now read about the "X" type of sword, they seem designed for this.
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