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Jacob Cash




Location: United States
Joined: 04 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: My first sword - some help?         Reply with quote

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to this forum. I've only just discovered it a few weeks back and have been reading the reviews and the forums when I can get the time. I am also new to owning swords. I haven't purchased my first yet, but I've been putting quite a few months into researching the one I want to spend my money on.

Basically, I've come down to two swords that I would love to own. The first is the Albion Crecy, and the second is the Albion Talhoffer. I prefer the Talhoffer over the Crecy right now simply because I hate how the hilt on the Crecy looks, whereas I love the hilt of the Talhoffer, and also love the blade of the Crecy.

I have a few questions to ask, but the first is this:
Is there any way Albion would rehilt the Crecy blade onto a different hilt of my choosing, or would I have to get a different craftsman to do that?

How does the Talhoffer compare to the Crecy when it comes to cutting? How does the Crecy compare to the Talhoffer in thrusting?

I know it's a lot of questions, but I've been weighing my options with the two, and know that I want a strong, dependable longsword that can both cut and thrust equally well, and also looks great. I'm really leaning pretty heavily toward the Talhoffer, but what do you guys think? Do you have any suggestions, alternatives, or advice? What are your guys' opinion of the two I've chosen?

Thanks. Big Grin

"Keep sharp both blade and mind."
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Both are very good swords, somewhat different in function.

The Talhoffer is an Oakeshott Type XVa with a flattened diamond section blade, mainly used for thrusting, though it can cut as well. The Crecy is a Type XVIa, a cut and thrust, jack-of-all-trades type sword. I believe the Crecy is a better seller, and very well-liked by all who buy it. I would recommend it over the Talhoffer, especially for a first buy.

The Crecy is the better cutter, but thrusts pretty well.
The Talhoffer is the better thruster: it cuts, but not that well.

Albion will not change the hilt furniture. Your best shot would be to go to Christian Fletcher who often customizes Albion Swords. You can buy direct from him. www.christianfletcher.com I believe his Heroic Line Borderwatch sword uses a Crecy blade. You could also have something done at Yeshua's http://www.yeshuas-sword.com/ after you buy it from Albion.

If you aren't familiar with the Oakeshot blade type system, look here - http://myArmoury.com/feature_oakeshott2.html


Last edited by Roger Hooper on Wed 08 Oct, 2014 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Jia
Industry Professional



Location: Canberra
Joined: 30 Sep 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Fletcher is as good choice. He has direct access to Albion Crecy blades (at least for his Borderwatch sword)
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jacob,

Keep in mind that if you were wanting a Crecy blade with Talhoffer hilt furnishings, and I'm not saying that you do, but in case that's so, you'd end up with a really weird Frankenstein sword. The sword would look really wrong and out of place because you're mixing and matching hilt components that don't go together.

If you have a look at the Type XV article and Type XVI articles in the myArmoury Features section, you'll start to get a feel for what hilt furnishings are appropriate to what blade.
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Ben Coomer




Location: Colorado
Joined: 06 Sep 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd go with the Crecy, personally. Its an all around good sword.

I also don't like the hilt of the Talhoffer at all, so I'm biased.
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Aaron Hoard




Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 10:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The obvious answer is: buy them both Happy

The Crecy was my first sword and I still really like it. A good, all-around longsword. To me, it's what a classic sword should look like.

I think the Tallhoffer is a great looking sword and it's a few down on my "want" list.

Maybe this wouldn't happen working with someone like Christian Fletcher, but I'd worry about changing the handling dynamics of the sword once you start swapping parts around. There's a lot of thought that went into the proportion of various elements on these swords.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 12:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Related to what Aaron said about mixing and matching hilt components:

If you have not read it already, you should definitely read Peter Johnsson's comments about CoP. I am transcribing what he wrote here:


Peter: The node of no vibration in the blade is located between one quarter and one third of the blade length from the point. This is a place where vibrations are cancelled out. The nodes of no vibration are a result of cross section (stiffness) and distribution of mass.

There is a second node of no vibration in the hilt.

Apart from this pair of primary nodes there are nodes of higher frequencies (like the overtones of the string on a string instrument) that straddle the primary nodes on each side outwards. They also play a role in how the sword vibrates, or does not vibrate.

The vibration nodes have been focus for much interest since they are easy to observe, but they are not alone in defining the function and performance in a sword. Just one aspect of the dynamic profile of a sword.
You cannot judge the performance of a sword by just looking at where the node of no vibration is located in the blade. Just like you cannot determine the handling characteristics of a sword just by looking at where the point of balance is located.
Each aspect will tell you just that: one aspect of the swords characteristics, one aspect of its dynamic profile (Dynamic, as in how it moves and how it responds to impacts).

Pivot points are something distinct and different from nodes, but they interact with the nodes in the dynamic profile of the sword. Pivot points are an effect of rotational inertia (largely an effect of distribution of mass and distance).
On each given point in the grip or hilt of a sword, there is a corresponding pivot point, usually located somewhere in the blade. On badly balanced swords (too little distal taper and too heavy pommel, for example) the forward pivot point may be located outside the length of the blade, forward of the point. This results in very strange handling characteristics that is nothing like that of an authentic sword. If the point of balance is pushed too far towards the hilt, the result may be that the forward pivot point in the blade is pushed far outside the point of the blade.

The placing of the pivot points is a key to understanding how a sword will tend to react when put in motion. Pivot points are also responsible for dampening feedback into the hand when a blow is delivered. It is often said that this is an effect of the vibration nodes, but that is not entirely correct. Vibration nodes cancel out vibrations, pivot point determine handling characteristics and dampen shock.

Different types of swords have different combinations of the placing of the vibration nodes and the pivot points. There is not one single placing that is *the best*. Different types of swordsmanship, different ways of using the sword will demand different dynamic profiles.

Looking at historical swords there are certain trends to be observed.

It is not unusual that modern replicas have very different dynamic profiles than the swords they are intended to represent. That means that a modern sword may look pretty much spot on, but have dramatically different properties in heft and performance from that of an original weapon. The effect of this is that modern swordsmen cannot know if their training equipment gives correct feedback. Unless you know that your training sword *behaves* and *performs* like an authentic sword of a type that is correct for the school of swordsmanship that is studied, you can only speculate whether the interpretation of the techniques you are studying is correct or not.

Just because a replica sword has the same overall size, weight and point of balance as that of an authentic sword, there is no guarantee that it behaves like the original sword. Subtle changes in distal taper and cross section can have great effect in the placing of pivot points and nodes of no vibration. The replica may well move in a way that is dramatically different from the original. It may also deliver thrusts and cuts differently.

The devil is in the details. As we are looking as a complex interaction between many factors, there are many points in the design that has to be met, many more than just overall dimension, weight and point of balance.

Back to pivot points and nodes of no vibration: sometimes there is an overlapping of nodes of no vibration and a pair of pivot points, but this is not automatic or universal. The maker of the sword will have to strive for a certain dynamic profile (placing of balance point, vibration nodes and pivot points) for this to happen: many aspects will have to be adjusted just so, for this to happen. Even if the pivot points and vibration nodes overlap, they are still different and separate aspects of the functional properties of a sword. It is a good idea to keep them clearly defined.

This is all pretty technical and I do not have the knowledge in physics and mechanics to describe the cause in a clear and scientific way.

These aspects of dynamic properties of swords can be more or less clearly observed, however. Some are more fiddly to locate precisely, but you can normally come close enough to get a pretty good understanding. It takes some practice to do, however. Two people reading the pivot points in the same blade, may or may not come to the same conclusion. This because a variation in how the sword is gripped and swung: youŽll get a different reading as a result.

In ancient times they surely had other ways to define what was important in how swords felt and functioned. Nodes of no vibration and pivot points are mostly modern concepts, but we can use these to pin point and describe the dynamic properties of the function of swords. That is why they are useful.

Each aspect, or element is only one part of a complex whole, however. This is important to bear in mind.
By having nifty definitions for the balance or performance of swords it is easy to jump to the conclusion we know *all* there is to know about swords. We may fool ourselves into believing we have the secret to all successful designs.

Over the years when I have documented original swords I have seen quite a bit of variation on these themes. It is not just one solution that goes for all swords. And there are trends, or typical profiles that goes along with different types of swords. You can read something about how the sword was intended to be used by looking at its dynamic profile.
This shows us that ancient swordsmen and sword smiths strove for certain things. Some qualities were more sought out than others and this varied over time and between different styles or techniques of swordsmanship.

So this was a very long winded reply to the question: Why is a forward placing of the COP a good thing.
It can be, but it will sometimes come at a price that you are not prepared to pay, given the situation and sword type. The COP is not the dominant feature of sword function. It is simply one of several important aspects.
Saying that all else is equal, makes for a very simplified situation that actually loose meaning since all things are never equal. You always have the weigh different aspects against each other.

It might also be a good idea to strive for dynamic profiles that are closely patterned after historical examples, since these swords were made for use: we can learn from this both as makers and swordsmen.
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Robert Frey




Location: Wausau, WI
Joined: 19 Nov 2013

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, what you really want is the "Brescia Spadona" at the same price as the "Crecy"?

Me too. I am in the same boat as the O.P and like the same two swords.

I for some reason having nothing to do with experience do not like a wheel pommel. It seems like it is "in the way" to my mind (maybe it's my mind that is in the way). The only practice with a longsword I have is with another guys' Liechtenauer. Maybe if I had some time practicing with a sword with the wheel pommel, I would not mind it on the Crecy.

That's the problem when starting out, you want to have it your way, just like at the fast food joint. Swords do not seem to work like that, when you change something, the sword won't "work" or "feel" the same way as before. I don't want to go buy a complete set of clothes and armor, so I cannot just follow the patterns set by the historical era of which I am enamored (same reason I never took up Cowboy Action Shooting). I just like the design of the Type XVI blades.

I've seen it written on here that your taste in swords will change as your experience improves your abilities. You won't be able to buy the "PERFECT" sword until you are done learning (which means probably never).

Did any of this make any sense to you Mr. Cash?
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Jacob Cash




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I will admit that I am in love with the Brescia Spadona, but I can't spend that kind of money on a sword just yet, nor do I in fact have that much to spend at all. >.< From your guys' replies, it seems like the Crecy is the optimal choice. Though I still don't think that the hilt looks that good. It appears too fat and bulky to me, the crossguard seems too short, and the wheel pommel is unappealing to me.

http://www.yeshuas-sword.com/Long_Sword.html While browsing Yeshua's site, I came across this one. This is the optimal longsword in my eyes. The guard could be a bit longer, but that's my preference. Also, I've noticed that the pommel on the Albion Earl is a beautiful scent stopper. ;_; I just can't decide.

What I may do is buy a Crecy, and maybe see if I can get it rehilted later on. Was it common in the middle ages for older style blades to be rehilted to match their contemporary competing swords?

"Keep sharp both blade and mind."
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check these. Nice selection and the Malatesta and their version of the Crecy may interest you...plus include some very nicely done scabbards...

http://customswordshoppe.com/

http://www.customswordshoppe.com/shoppe/produ...ucts_id=96

http://www.customswordshoppe.com/shoppe/produ...ducts_id=7

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Robert Frey




Location: Wausau, WI
Joined: 19 Nov 2013

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you live somewhere close enough that a trip to Albion is possible, going there and handling the swords may help. The guy who's Liechtenauer I have been using did that, and came back with a completely different sharp sword than he expected to buy. He ended up with The Duke (I don't remember what he was looking for).

I went to an event at Arms & Armor in Minneapolis to look at their Black Prince last year, very nice. In another room some antique swords were on display, when I picked up a Baskethilt sword it felt like it had been made just for me. A Baskethilt sword wasn't even on my radar before that.

The point is that Internet shopping can only get you so far. Eventually, you have to handle them, and that will tell you what you like.

.
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Jacob Cash




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert Frey wrote:
If you live somewhere close enough that a trip to Albion is possible, going there and handling the swords may help. The guy who's Liechtenauer I have been using did that, and came back with a completely different sharp sword than he expected to buy. He ended up with The Duke (I don't remember what he was looking for).

I went to an event at Arms & Armor in Minneapolis to look at their Black Prince last year, very nice. In another room some antique swords were on display, when I picked up a Baskethilt sword it felt like it had been made just for me. A Baskethilt sword wasn't even on my radar before that.

The point is that Internet shopping can only get you so far. Eventually, you have to handle them, and that will tell you what you like.

.


That is true, but I live in the middle of the country, so making a trip to New Glaurus would be quite the trip just to handle some swords I want. >.< So I'm a bit stuck right now just internet shopping. I'm looking at the Valiant Armory swords that were also linked, and I like their Crecy as well, but how would they compare to the Albion Crecy? Does anyone have them both and can give me a small review? >.<

"Keep sharp both blade and mind."
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I own their Bristol(in black) and the now discontinued Warder(two handed sabre). Both are incredible swords for the price. Plus you truly can't beat the scabbard work and you can even pic your color preference for any of the leather parts(handle,belt,scabbard)...

http://www.customswordshoppe.com/shoppe/produ...ducts_id=3

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Jacob Cash




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And now, after reading a review of the Sempach by D.S. Smith, I am falling in love with how that longsword looks. Gah. I swear, my indecisiveness will be the end of me. XD

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29254&highlight= link to the review.

"Keep sharp both blade and mind."
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Jimi Edmonds




Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Oct, 2014 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I to like the Sempach, I, after months of going here and there and originally wanted an Albion Earl, I managed to narrow it down, within hand'n'a half swords to the A&A Durer, Albion Fiore, Albion Sempach, Albion Earl and the Munich.
Now finally I was going to get the Fiore, but the Sempach was my final choice.
For the others it's the Durer, I'd like it peened and with a thinner grip, the Fiore is nice but it's the cross that is almost the breaker, the Earl, it's mean I'd love it, though the cross and price is a breaker (but I could live with it, and it's would be better with a cross like the Regent as I have seen on a custom one), the Munich, well out of my budget!....now the Sempach, the pommel looks cool and is said to be as comfy as a scent stopper pommel, the cross is nice not to fancy and the blade looks awesome, fuller with a diamond section and re-enforced point, only worry is it may be a little light as I'm used to my Liechtenauer at 1.58kgs (3.7ounce?) and the Sempach is 3 ounces (1+kg?), can live with it though.

So now I am just waiting on an import permit and a 6 month give or take wait and a Sempach will be mine!
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 4:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, since you'll have to spend some time saving money before you can buy an Albion anyway, you might just as well wait until they come to a fair or some other similar event close to where you live. They do this pretty regularly -- several times a year -- so the odds are pretty good that you'd be able to find their booth in a fair or convention within reach if you wait long enough.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This Marketplace entry might be worth checking out: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30963&highlight=
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Jacob Cash




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As much as I would like to own a two handed sword like that, I don't have the funds right now. And it might be a bit too big for me. I'm a fairly small guy, at only 5'6" and 180lbs. I'm looking for a sword that would be fast and nimble for my size. I'm wondering if the Crecy might be too long for me to handle properly? Not sure, as I haven't handled it. :/

The more I look at the Crecy hilt, the more it seems to be growing on me. I still prefer the later styles of hilt furniture for longswords, but I think Albion made a good choice with their decisions on the guard and pommel.

"Keep sharp both blade and mind."
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just one more opinion...

That two hander wouldn't be too big for you, it just doesn't handle like a longsword. In fact I think for Montante Practice (Montante is a style of two handed sword used on the Iberian Peninsula, Its use is well documented in treatise) that it would be a great size for you.

If you want a nimble sword I'd look at this one
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/sq...astard.htm

Its a squire line, so you get Albion research without the high finish at a nice price. If you want to cut with it, you can order it sharpened for a nominal fee. By all accounts it handles superbly and with a wider blade than the Talhoffer it'll cut well. I don't think you could do better for a first sword.

I personally have a Fiore, and for me its perfect. I prefer disk pommels to scent stopper, and the forward curved guard I like too. Those XVa's cut nicely too, because they are so stiff, they efficiently place energy into your target. It might not be the best bottle chipper, or pool noodle slicer, but in tatami it's quite efficient, and rewards proper form.

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Jacob Cash




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm. I have also been considering the Albion Mercenary as another choice. I like the cut and thrust blade it has. The 15th C. Bastard Sword is basically the Mercenary but blunt, right? I might have to consider that one.
"Keep sharp both blade and mind."
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