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Eric S




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject: Opinions needed on this riveted mail hauberk.         Reply with quote

I would like to get some opinions on this riveted mail hauberk, I will post images of the whole armor later but I think the best way to get an accurate opinion is by viewing a small detailed sample of the front and back side of some links from the same area. These images are from the lower sleeve area.


Outside view of the links, lower sleeve.



Inside view of the links, lower sleeve.



Outside of the links from the lower sleeve with a penny on top to give an idea of the link size.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My first guess would be Italian - maybe 15th-16th century.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
My first guess would be Italian - maybe 15th-16th century.


Thanks Dan, I do not know of another wedge riveted hauberk with alternating solid links besides the Sinigaglia hauberk, it appears to be quite old with several different types of repair links. I was wondering if this hauberk might be from the period between when round riveted mail with alternating solid links was used and all wedge riveted mail with no solid links became commonly used. I know of another example of alternating solid and wedge riveted mail that is said to be 14th century in the Royal Armouries but it is from a horse armor and not a hauberk.

Here is a close up view of a failed link showing the wedge shaped rivet.


Last edited by Eric S on Sat 13 Sep, 2014 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom Richardson, The medieval inventories of the Tower armouries 13201410, p. 35 wrote:

The evidence in the Tower accounts shows that the traditional date of 1400
before which European mail was made of half-riveted, half solid links, needs to be
revised to about 1340.


If Richardson is correct, we are starting to see a phasing out of demi-riveted construction (at least in a northern European context, as much English mail is imported from the Netherlands and Cologne), by 1350. I don't know if we have sufficient evidence to say if the same is true for north Italian mail.

I take it that the body is of a heavier construction than the sleeves?

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Thom Richardson, The medieval inventories of the Tower armouries 13201410, p. 35 wrote:

The evidence in the Tower accounts shows that the traditional date of 1400
before which European mail was made of half-riveted, half solid links, needs to be
revised to about 1340.


If Richardson is correct, we are starting to see a phasing out of demi-riveted construction (at least in a northern European context, as much English mail is imported from the Netherlands and Cologne), by 1350. I don't know if we have sufficient evidence to say if the same is true for north Italian mail.



I am thinking that this hauberk may be an example of the transition from alternating round riveted links and solid links to all wedge riveted links, at some point in time wedge shaped rivets started to be substituted for round rivets but solid links were still in use, this must have gradually died out at some point with most wedge riveted mail eventually being all riveted.

I am sure that there are other examples of this that have not been discovered simply because no one has taken the time or has the knowledge to look at the back side of the links of the hauberks they have in their possession whether in a museum or privately owned.


Quote:
I take it that the body is of a heavier construction than the sleeves?


Here are some comparison images of the sleeve links (left side) and the center chest links (right side).



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Eric S




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PostPosted: Fri 12 Sep, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a front and back view, it is 18lbs.

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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Sep, 2014 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

so it's actually mughal or something similar? or maybe russian/ polish?
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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Location: upstate NY
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Sep, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Where something wound up does not mean it originated there. I have worked on a number of mail shirts that came out of North Africa that had all the hallmarks of European origin.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Sep, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Where something wound up does not mean it originated there. I have worked on a number of mail shirts that came out of North Africa that had all the hallmarks of European origin.



James,
I agree wholeheartedly. That wide split at the front seems quite common in Arabic mail, so possibly Italian origin for export. There's a long relationship with Italy and other Mediterranean cultures.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Sep, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
so it's actually mughal or something similar? or maybe russian/ polish?


William, were an armor is located does not determine its origin, the construction on this mail rules out India or any Indo-Persian country. When compared to other mail examples this hauberk is closest in manufacture to European riveted mail. I would rule out Russian and Polish manufactured mail as the examples I have seen from these countries does not look the same.

The only confirmed image of alternating wedge riveted and solid link mail that I am aware besides the one we are currently discussing is in the Royal Armories described as being 14th century horse armor. The other known example is the Sinigaglia hauberk which is described as being 14th century as well, while I know of no image that shows that this is wedge riveted Martin Burgess has confirmed it in writing.

The Mail Shirt from Sinigaglia - E. Martin Burgess
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_3.pdf


Sinigaglia hauberk, alternating wedge riveted and solid link mail, 14th century.



Alternating wedge riveted and solid link mail from a horse armor, Royal Armories, 14th century.



Currently discussed hauberk.


Last edited by Eric S on Sat 13 Sep, 2014 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Sep, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Where something wound up does not mean it originated there. I have worked on a number of mail shirts that came out of North Africa that had all the hallmarks of European origin.

Very true, armor was sold, traded and taken in battle, there are examples of Ottoman armor in European armories, and European armor in Ottoman armories, European armor ended up in Japan etc.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Sep, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Where something wound up does not mean it originated there. I have worked on a number of mail shirts that came out of North Africa that had all the hallmarks of European origin.



James,
I agree wholeheartedly. That wide split at the front seems quite common in Arabic mail, so possibly Italian origin for export. There's a long relationship with Italy and other Mediterranean cultures.

Mart, here is a comparison between the Allen hauberk which you did a write up on and the one being discussed and a quote from you in regards to the Allen hauberk. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30423
Quote:
My analysis concludes this is likely a European haubergeon of the early 14th century based on its all-riveted construction, wedge rivets, and overall form. I suspect I might well be proven wrong on the date if someone else comes up with a better explanation for the long skirt


I personally do not see much difference in form between the two hauberks, as for a this statement.
Quote:
That wide split at the front seems quite common in Arabic mail

Can you show me any examples of Indo-Persian mail of this same form that have the "wide split" you describe? I am not sure that there are even enough documented examples to be able to say if this is a correct observation or not.

It would not seem economically feasible that mail was made specifically in Italy for export to India, especially this form which was outdated and eventually replaced with all riveted mail, have you heard of this actually happening? I do know that worn out and broken European sword blades were brought to India were they were re-manufactured into Indian style daggers and swords, why not the same for old used, outdated mail?

The Portuguese had a foothold in India since at least the early 1500s, and were know for trading all over the world, they were credited with bringing matchlocks manufactured in Goa India to Japan in 1543, I could certainly see them trading used European mail to less affluent indian armies which were abundant in that time period.

If you compare the shape of the Allen hauberk as well as the links to the shape of the hauberk being discussed and its riveted links they are very similar in my opinion. If you can assume that the Allen hauberk is 14th century then would it not make sense that the hauberk being discussed is at least the same general age if not older.




Allen hauberk left, all wedge riveted.



Allen hauberk links left.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Sep, 2014 1:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric,

To be clear, I don't think your shirt is Turkic or Arabic, but may have been made for export or modified in the export market to suit local tastes.

The primary differences from Allen M-2 are that M-2 is of all riveted construction and lacks the "wide gap" at the top of the skirt split. The top of the split on M-2 is only a single ring, despite how it hangs.

You are correct that I hadn't considered the possibility that M-2 had been made for export, hence my qualifier for new evidence for longer skirts at later dates. It had been a long week, and I was trying to get the de-brief out while it was fresh in my mind.

As for that gap at the top of the skirt split, which I suspect has something to do with saddle style (camel cavalry?), here's some quick examples:
Met 36.25.33 - Turkish,17th century
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-t...0534?img=2


A Turkish or Mamluk mail shirt
http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/early-mail-arm...-or-mamluk


A Sudanese example in the British Museum
chainmail_tunic.aspx" target="_blank" class="postlink">https://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/online_tours/africa/sudan_islamic_and_modern/chainmail_tunic.aspx


Perhaps you do a survey at the Topkapi to see how common this wide split was? (Thanks for the photo!)

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Sep, 2014 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric,

To be clear, I don't think your shirt is Turkic or Arabic, but may have been made for export or modified in the export market to suit local tastes.

Mart, now that is an interesting question, how hard would it have been to take a hauberk like the Allen M2 and remove enough links to provide the gap seen on the one being discussed, would it be easily to do or not, maybe someone who has made a hauberk could provide an answer. If they could not be altered and had to be made that way specifically then you could be correct.

I just have a hard time believing that European hauberks such as this were produced specifically for export, its much easier to see them being collected and exported when old, used and no longer as important an armor component in Europe, in the same way old sword blades were exported to India in the 1500s and 1600s. (see below)


Quote:
Perhaps you do a survey at the Topkapi to see how common this wide split was? (Thanks for the photo!)


Now that would be an incredible experience, could you imaging being able to catalog and photograph all of those hauberks


Indian katar with a European blade, 16th century.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Sep, 2014 4:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric,

To be clear, I don't think your shirt is Turkic or Arabic, but may have been made for export or modified in the export market to suit local tastes.

Mart, now that is an interesting question, how hard would it have been to take a hauberk like the Allen M2 and remove enough links to provide the gap seen on the one being discussed, would it be easily to do or not, maybe someone who has made a hauberk could provide an answer. If they could not be altered and had to be made that way specifically then you could be correct.

I just have a hard time believing that European hauberks such as this were produced specifically for export, its much easier to see them being collected and exported when old, used and no longer as important an armor component in Europe, in the same way old sword blades were exported to India in the 1500s and 1600s. (see below)


There are repeated complaints throughout medieval and renaissance Europe of Pisan, Genoan, and Venetian trade with the Mamluks and Turks. Prohibitions against selling iron and weapons abound, but the arms trade continued.
http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/Artille...e.doc2.pdf

Widening the split is easy enough for anyone with a pair of heavy shears or pincers. Removing rings is much faster and simpler than weaving them.

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Sep, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:


There are repeated complaints throughout medieval and renaissance Europe of Pisan, Genoan, and Venetian trade with the Mamluks and Turks. Prohibitions against selling iron and weapons abound, but the arms trade continued.
http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/Artille...e.doc2.pdf

Widening the split is easy enough for anyone with a pair of heavy shears or pincers. Removing rings is much faster and simpler than weaving them.

Good information, while it does not mention trade with India specifically I did find this sentence very interesting
Quote:
but we do know that the Genoese sold arms and Milan-made coats of mail.


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