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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 12:00 pm    Post subject: The “original“ Dane?         Reply with quote

In the Helligtrekongers Kapel (Chapel of the Three Kings) of Danish King Christian 1 (1448-1481) in the Roskilde Cathedral, there is a sword contributed to him and it looks precisely (?) like the weapon the Albion Dane was modeled after!

It was likely used as a knighting sword to the new order “Guds Moders Selskab“ created ~1457 [= Society/Order of the Good Mother - that would later become known as “Elefantordenen“ = The Order of the Elephant]. The chapel was build in 1462 for this ceremony and it was given statutter (by-law?) by Pope Sixtus 4 in 1474.



 Attachment: 27.43 KB
An original Dane_Roskilde Cathedral.jpg
Knighting Sword of Christian 1.
Source: http://linneasunivers.blogspot.dk/2012/02/roskilde-domkirke-volume-6.html



Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Thu 04 Sep, 2014 12:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 796

PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Apparently Christian 1 liked his swords big, since I also found a chalcography of him with a another great sword. But I don't know when this image was created.
It says in the bottom that this image is a copy after an original “kunststykke“ (artpiece), but no dates given.
But since the chalcography technique is known from 1477 in Florence & Bologna it is possible it's from his time.



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Christian_1_Kobberstik_sværd.jpg
Great Sword of Christian 1.
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is indeed very similar but I understand that there are several broadly similar swords that are extant with the long ricasso and grip. Oakeshott notes a number in his Swords in the Age of Chivalry. It is fairly clearly a style that is very exclusive to Scandinavia, especially Denmark, although there are similar swords from Italy as well. Johnsson's version of the sword is more or less a composite of historical examples, which is largely the case with much of the Albion Next Generation line.

I am not familiar with what you call 'chalcography' but a Google search tells me that it's copper-plate engraving.

Judging from the style of the text at the bottom of the engraving you supply and the artistic style of the image I would place it at late 1600's or early 1700's. This is also supported by the way the sword looks, as though the artist took a fairly standard longsword and simply elongated the blade without making the grip longer. With that short of a grip to that blade length, it would be very unwieldy. The armour has also been drawn as rather blocky and inaccurate, which is possible at the correct period but unlikely.

So best to consider the picture a historic fiction, especially as Christian probably did not look that much like he is illustrated. Period depictions are in his Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_I_of_Denmark
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 796

PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
It is indeed very similar but I understand that there are several broadly similar swords that are extant with the long ricasso and grip. Oakeshott notes a number in his Swords in the Age of Chivalry. It is fairly clearly a style that is very exclusive to Scandinavia, especially Denmark, although there are similar swords from Italy as well. Johnsson's version of the sword is more or less a composite of historical examples, which is largely the case with much of the Albion Next Generation line.

I am not familiar with what you call 'chalcography' but a Google search tells me that it's copper-plate engraving.

Judging from the style of the text at the bottom of the engraving you supply and the artistic style of the image I would place it at late 1600's or early 1700's. This is also supported by the way the sword looks, as though the artist took a fairly standard longsword and simply elongated the blade without making the grip longer. With that short of a grip to that blade length, it would be very unwieldy. The armour has also been drawn as rather blocky and inaccurate, which is possible at the correct period but unlikely.

So best to consider the picture a historic fiction, especially as Christian probably did not look that much like he is illustrated. Period depictions are in his Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_I_of_Denmark


Thanks Big Grin
So this “Dane“ is an example that is very close looking. Would be interesting to know precisely which swords Johnsson made the Dane from......
There is so few Danish Museum Swords available on the internet, so it is quite frustrating when you know how many we have. It just so hard to take good picture with glass reflection.

Yeah the chalcography is with all certainly a fiction as you say [when checking pictures of his time compared to this it becomes quite obvious], but then it might have some form of historic memory of his love of big swords that they choose to portray him this way. Maybe a memory of the knighting ceremony - “using that huge sword for it“.
The image is likely made outside Denmark (or by one not knowing to much about great swords), because you would think they would have had access to his sword(s) if it was made in Denmark?
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A search reveals this topic:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20008

And this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19136

And this page:

http://www.myArmoury.com/swor_alb_dane.html

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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 796

PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
A search reveals this topic:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20008

And this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19136

And this page:

http://www.myArmoury.com/swor_alb_dane.html


Thanks Cool
There are 4 Scandinavian swords shown on in the last link. The third one looks exactly like the Roskilde one with the broken off crossguard. So they date in 1450-1460 which fits of Christian 1. made the order in 1457 and used the sword for knighting.
Amazingly it's the smallest of the 4.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 796

PostPosted: Fri 05 Jun, 2015 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote


Source: http://pics.myArmoury.com/XVIIIe_01.jpg
From "Middelalderens Tveæggede Sværd", by Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer.

So on this drawing, the Roskilde sword is number is c).

Apparently the great Danish sword collector E.A. Christensen owned the d) one.
Sadly is seems his impressive collection (lot 1-78) was sold off in 2012 (or some of it), but I can't spot his "dane sword" in the catalogue.
Source to auction with image of each sword: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19796/
Catalogue pdf: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19796/

Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer produced a book in 1968 entirely to his collection called: "Gammelt Jern" (Eng: Old Iron).

Beside the 4 swords a)-b)-c)-d) I have also located, that Koldinghus (though not in the exhibition) has a 2-H "Dane Sword" found in a grave at or near the Gråbrødrekirke in Kolding (the church was closed in 1529).

In the 1800's 3 grave-swords was dug out and two of them came into the private collection of Shoemaker P.M Møller. Apparently Koldinghus bought the Dane sword from him for 70 kroner.
So the swords are thought to be from the graves of noblemen buried between 1475-1525.

This article about the church shows images of two of the swords on page 901:
Source: http://danmarkskirker.natmus.dk/uploads/tx_tc...902_01.pdf

Here are the museum info on the Kolding Dane Sword (with 4 pictures), that only have a fragment left of it's guard:

Source: https://www.kulturarv.dk/mussam/VisGenstand.action?genstandId=2072277

Jern L (Total length): 138,7 cm.
Klinge (Blade length): 80 cm.
Klingebryst (Ricasso ?): 19,5 cm.
Br.: Klinge (Blade width): 4,5 cm.
Angel (Width of Tang): 2,2 cm.
Fragmentarisk parerstang:,5 cm. [Fragmentary guard 0,5 cm ? as ",5" could mean a typo, so for instance 1,5 cm is also possible].
På klingebrystet et skjold(?)formet stempel. [On the Ricasso is seen a shield?-shaped stamp).
Pæreformet knap. [Pear-shaped Pommel]

The second grave sword (not a 2-H Dane Sword) is seen here:

Source: https://www.kulturarv.dk/mussam/VisGenstand.action?genstandId=2072350

Total length: 102,5 cm
Blade length: 87 cm
Key-formed engraved mark on the blade.
Angel (Width of Tang): 2,2 cm


Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Thu 11 Jun, 2015 11:50 am; edited 4 times in total
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 796

PostPosted: Fri 05 Jun, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Found some info on the a) sword located at Kalundborg Museum.
Source: https://www.kulturarv.dk/mussam/VisGenstand.action?genstandId=3344930

Code: 6605
Blade length: 105 cm
Grip length: 45 cm [uncertain whether this length includes the pommel or not]
The grip had traces of leather covering the wood and had iron-bands.
Fragmentary Guard length: 10 cm
Grave Sword from "Kålund Kloster" found in 1948 (grave 4) and is attributed to ~1450-1532 AD (end of Burials because of the Reformation).

In another grave from Kålund Kloster (grave 3) a second 2-h "Dane Sword" was found in 1961 still within it's wooden sheath, but with a seemingly straighter guard. This sword is not in the Kalundborg Museum, but at the National Museum [though it's not the b) sword]

Code: D 1575/1961
Blade length: 99 cm
Ricasso: 18 cm
Total Length: ~140 cm
Fragmentary Guard: 23 cm
Wooden grip with 5 bands of brass-threads.
Facetted Pear-shaped pommel.
Dating: ~1450-1532 AD

Images from it being found in the grave (page 3338) and image of the sword (page 3339).
Source: http://danmarkskirker.natmus.dk/uploads/tx_tc...7-3340.pdf
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