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Daniel Gorringe




Location: United States
Joined: 27 Aug 2014

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: 16th c Pauldrons- range of motion?         Reply with quote

What it says in the title. Take a 16th century style pauldron like this-
What's the range of motion on it? How high can you raise your arms? Can you touch the back of your head? If so, exactly what does it look like when it's moved around?

I ask as a (not very good) illustrator wanting to draw kewl armour in dynamic poses, but in a researched, believable, grounded fashion. Any help immensely appreciated!
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Matias Tonazzi




Location: Buenos Aires
Joined: 13 Jul 2014

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have some leather pauldrons and I can move my arms freely. As for drawings, I hope this helps a bit (it's rushes on the sopt now on a mini break at work).

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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 7:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd imagine that the actual amount is more than it looks, but what sort of horizontal (ventral/dorsal) motion does a pauldron like this allow for?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Daniel Gorringe




Location: United States
Joined: 27 Aug 2014

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First, that's amazing and thankyou very much! Second, more questions! Because questions.
Let's say my fictional person is doing some kind of big, heroic, downward strike- (that you probably wouldn't really do, but 2d art needs to exaggerate poses to make up for lack of depth and motion) Their weapon is dangling down their back, their elbow is facing the foe/camera, similar position to touching the back of the head.

Infuriatingly, a knight/gendarme/whatever is actually doing this in the Battle of San Romano, but you can't actually see the shoulder on that side of his body.

Second, where, if anywhere, is the cut-off point in motion? Can you raise the arms vertically above the head, with the shoulder facing either forward, backwards, or the side?
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Neil Bockus





Joined: 14 Dec 2010

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That pauldron's design and etching scheme look similar to one currently displayed at the Museo Stibbert. An image of the armor with its right arm raised and canted as if to draw a sword can be found here:

http://www.museumsinflorence.com/musei/stibbert_museum.html
(Parade of Horses and Riders - detail about 1/3 the way down the page)

The same armor is on the cover of a pamphlet with good information about the armors held within the museum. Name is:

"Museo Stibbert Firenze No. 9 La Cavalcata." The range of motion seems to be very good.

Also, 16th century armors had a number of different designs as you might expect. One to check out is Kunz Lochner's 1548 armor (29.151.2) in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. You can see that some of the rivets which hold the pauldrons together fit into tracks, allowing the parts of the pauldrons to slide over each other.

"The Sword of Freedom is kept sharp by those who live on its edge." - Scott Adams
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Daniel Gorringe




Location: United States
Joined: 27 Aug 2014

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 1:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote



Ah HA! Thankyou very, very much!

... naturally, I'm going to need to know about the various designs in circulation, haute pieces, and so on. ... recommended sources?
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Neil Bockus





Joined: 14 Dec 2010

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some museums with good pictures on their websites include:

The Metropolitan Museum of Art (http://www.metmuseum.org/collections)
The Wallace Collection (http://www.wallacecollection.org/thecollection)
Higgins (last I checked, their website is still maintained though they have closed: http://higgins.lostpapyr.us/)
Kunsthistorisches Museum (http://bilddatenbank.khm.at/)
The Philadelphia Museum of Art (http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/)

That should get you started!

"The Sword of Freedom is kept sharp by those who live on its edge." - Scott Adams
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 529

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have worked on many such 16th c. pauldrons over the years, and have made that style, myself. They cause very little restriction of motion, and one can easily touch the back of one's head, or raise one's arm up straight in the air. They won't allow you to touch your elbows together, though. Laughing Out Loud
jamesarlen.com
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Daniel Gorringe




Location: United States
Joined: 27 Aug 2014

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I have worked on many such 16th c. pauldrons over the years, and have made that style, myself. They cause very little restriction of motion, and one can easily touch the back of one's head, or raise one's arm up straight in the air. They won't allow you to touch your elbows together, though.


Well, if you have any photos of them in raised positions, I'd be ridiculously interested! Wink

Illustratively, you really have to build up your understanding of how something moves from observation and sketching, sketching, and more sketching, from the best sources you can find. You guys have been an enormous help already!
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is an excellent video of Dr Toby Capwell sprinting/doing star-jumps/calisthenics etc in his harness that really shows off how mobile that style of armour allowed one to be. I can't find a link for it right now, but hunt it down, well worth a watch.
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Daniel Gorringe




Location: United States
Joined: 27 Aug 2014

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay, this is how I think it works so far.
Broadly, there's a middle section, and plates overlapping in opposite directions for the shoulder and upper bicep, and trapezius/collarbone regions respectively. If the arm is raised, one or both collapses in under the main section, which lifts away from the armpit, fastened as it is to a point near where the shoulder meets the neck.


Now that's crap ugly and all, but hopefully close to how it ought to work.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 28 Feb 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 29 Aug, 2014 7:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 1590s, Sir John Smythe suggested the possibility that mail sleeves instead of pauldrons and vambraces might allow halberdiers to use their weapons better, though he considered either arming completely acceptable. Humphrey Barwick, who argued with Smythe fiercely regarding the bow and the gun, wanted pauldrons but no vambraces for halberdiers. So infantry pauldrons might have very slightly interfered with wielding a weapon like a halberd, but not by much.
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
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Edward Lee




Location: New York
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

Posts: 313

PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my opinion, I think maill sleeves should work fine against edged weapons compare to pauldro and should have better range of motion. Maybe pauldrons were thick enough to stop bullets and were also easier to mass produce than mail, or may be it was fashion since pauldron just looks better even today in movies and video game you see people wearing a huge "shoulder pad".
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Donald McClellan




Location: Columbus Ohio
Joined: 29 Sep 2014

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon 29 Sep, 2014 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some video demonstrations of motion range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcJiB6lvkEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz7naZ08Jd4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S_Q3CGqZmg


Don Mac.

It's only pain.
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