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Scott Roush
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Location: Washburn, WI
Joined: 27 Jan 2011

Posts: 452

PostPosted: Fri 18 Jul, 2014 6:18 am    Post subject: Destrezza.. and... side sword?         Reply with quote

I'm getting a little befuddled on an issue. I've started learning Destrezza and I'd like to find the 'perfect' sword for this style. It will obviously need a production blade suitable for cut and thrust fencing.

Would something in the vague category 'side sword' or 'Spada de lato' be the most approriate? I understand that these terms are misused and misapplied sometimes.

My plan is to forge a hilt as close to historical parameters as possible.. for whatever blade I end up choosing... and I want something that is ideal for the fencing style that I've chosen to follow.

Any ideas for inspiration would be most welcome...

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Mark Nelson





Joined: 08 Jul 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri 18 Jul, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps a little too obvious, but how about a Darkwood Armory Destreza training sword?

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_...dmv023tt37

I got a chance to use one at the Borealis Swordplay Symposium and found it to be really nice. A bit faster and lighter than their other sidesword blades, but still solid in the parry.
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Scott Roush
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Location: Washburn, WI
Joined: 27 Jan 2011

Posts: 452

PostPosted: Fri 18 Jul, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Nelson wrote:
Perhaps a little too obvious, but how about a Darkwood Armory Destreza training sword?

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_...dmv023tt37

I got a chance to use one at the Borealis Swordplay Symposium and found it to be really nice. A bit faster and lighter than their other sidesword blades, but still solid in the parry.


yeah I've been looking at that. But the vain part of me wants something unique since I have the option of making something myself... or having my armorer/blacksmith friend at Iron Tree Forge (John Logan) help...

I also understand that the Destreza method was in use long enough that multiple sword types would have been correct.. but I'm drawn to the cut and thrust swords.. or 'cutting rapiers'.. or whatever the actual wording was used during the time period.

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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Jul, 2014 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott, I think you are best of making your own sword from scratch.
You can do it and am fairly sure your sword would be better than most that you can buy.

I can give you a few hints as to the blade.
If it were me, I would go for a longer style blade.
I may have things backwards, but with Destreza I associate the very long, very narrow and light spanish cup hilt rapiers?
Very stylish and elegant.
Brings the notion of "balance" to a whole new level...
:-)
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Scott Roush
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Location: Washburn, WI
Joined: 27 Jan 2011

Posts: 452

PostPosted: Fri 18 Jul, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Scott, I think you are best of making your own sword from scratch.
You can do it and am fairly sure your sword would be better than most that you can buy.

I can give you a few hints as to the blade.
If it were me, I would go for a longer style blade.
I may have things backwards, but with Destreza I associate the very long, very narrow and light spanish cup hilt rapiers?
Very stylish and elegant.
Brings the notion of "balance" to a whole new level...
:-)


Thanks for the input Peter. I'm definitely planning to make a sword.. the complete package and according to historical parameters. I have not yet attempted an actual 'replica-type' project.. and I want it to be this.

But for my own historical fencing practice.. I've been a little hesitant to make the blade myself due to the various regulations surrounding some of the fencing clubs. Restrictions regarding stiffness/flexibility of the blade for one. Although.. now that I'm using high temperature salts.. I suppose I no longer really fear making these blades. Especially if I use a deep hardening steel.

And yes.. I've also been looking at the later Spanish cup hilts. I believe the early practitioners were basing there methods on heavier cutting/transitional swords.. but perhaps the Spanish cup hilt is a better overall representation of the ideal?

http://www.bigrockforge.com
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Scott Roush
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Location: Washburn, WI
Joined: 27 Jan 2011

Posts: 452

PostPosted: Fri 18 Jul, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking of cup hilts..

Does anybody have information on this style of hilt? I really like the guard that is integral to the cup itself. And the piercings and file work also speak to me.

edit: I've found the source of this and have an inquiry in. But any trivia on swords like this would be wonderful!


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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Jul, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Roush wrote:
I also understand that the Destreza method was in use long enough that multiple sword types would have been correct.. but I'm drawn to the cut and thrust swords.. or 'cutting rapiers'.. or whatever the actual wording was used during the time period.


The actual wording used during the period was "sword." Happy

Like you said, multiple styles of sword were used. Hilts in the early era just had a cross, finger rings, posts and maybe a side ring, and a knuckle guard. Later, the cup hilt took hold. The blade lengths tended to get longer and thinner as time went on, but not ever longer than around 41" (5/4 vara) cross to tip. There were numerous legal prohibitions against anything longer, Pacheco echoes that prohibition, and other authors gave lengths as well.


Tim
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Scott Roush
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Location: Washburn, WI
Joined: 27 Jan 2011

Posts: 452

PostPosted: Thu 24 Jul, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Rivera wrote:
Scott Roush wrote:
I also understand that the Destreza method was in use long enough that multiple sword types would have been correct.. but I'm drawn to the cut and thrust swords.. or 'cutting rapiers'.. or whatever the actual wording was used during the time period.


The actual wording used during the period was "sword." Happy

Like you said, multiple styles of sword were used. Hilts in the early era just had a cross, finger rings, posts and maybe a side ring, and a knuckle guard. Later, the cup hilt took hold. The blade lengths tended to get longer and thinner as time went on, but not ever longer than around 41" (5/4 vara) cross to tip. There were numerous legal prohibitions against anything longer, Pacheco echoes that prohibition, and other authors gave lengths as well.


Tim


Thank you Tim... yes I've been doing quite a bit of reading since posting this and was just reading Puck's article on blade length.

And yes.. I now realize that 'spada de lata' is basically just a sword. :-)

Anyway.. I've now got a couple of blades in the process of forging as well as a raised/dished cup and some wrought iron quillons with knuckle guard. Now I'm mostly after blade geometry....

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William Alexander Elder




Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: 08 Sep 2012

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu 24 Jul, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you looked at examples of Bilbo (or bilbao) swords? I think they're 16th century or so. They're basically cup hilts, some of which have the integral knuckleguard, and a wider blade suitable for cut and thrust. The blades tend to be a little shorter than a full rapier, though I did see a custom piece with a Bilbo-style hilt with a longer colichemarde-style blade. No pictures of any of this right now, I'm afraid. I'm at work and a google search of "Bilbo sword" just gives me a lot of Sting images.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Aug, 2014 5:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try this older threads for bilbos. Incidentally, I think a cup hilt with a broader cut-and-thrust blade would be an excellent idea since it'd reproduce a somewhat under-represented type in the market today.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ight=bilbo
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