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Maks Roman




Location: Poland/Scotland
Joined: 08 Jul 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 4:04 am    Post subject: Late 13th/ Early 14th century troops         Reply with quote

Hello all!

As my first post I'd like to ask a question: what would a normal soldier wear as armour during late 13th/early 14th century? I'm mainly interested in Scottish battles of independence, but not exclusively.
As far as I know it would be some sort of maille hauberk over padding, an arming cap and a kettle hat. Would they wear anything on the hauberk? Like a jumpeon?
Also, a lot of manuscripts for the period show people with a skull cap and a maille coif over it. Do they portray knights or man-at-arms?

Thank you for your help!
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 5:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Except the lowest men levied, all soldiers would wear some form of padded armour. The next upgrade is mail over it, and in the period you are interested in there is a possibility of a coat of plates on top of everything for those who could afford it. If you are asking about foot soldiers, I doubt many would have it, though. Also, few footman would have any kind of leg armour in that period and area. About the head gear, I guess the lowest choice would be a good padded arming cap, next level arming cap plus coif and above that you get into many various combinations, cap + coif / cap + coif + iron skull cap (over or under coif) / cap + kettle helm / cap + coif + kettle helm, and these choices might not be enough to tell if someone is a regular soldier, man at arms or a knight. Plenty of knights chose lighter head armour for the sake of visibility and ease of breathing...
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Maks Roman




Location: Poland/Scotland
Joined: 08 Jul 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So basically what the depictions are in Maciejowski Bible plus CoP for the wealthy ones? I thought that maybe something changed over the next 50 years.
What about helmets with nasals then? Are they still viable or were they discarded? I see them in Maciejowski Bible, but not in the art of the period I'm interested in.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You are in luck as we have a pretty good idea on this.

Here is the Scot Parl. Roll for 1318.

De armaturis veniencium ad exercitum prout habent in bonis †

Item ordinatum est† et assensum quod† quilibet homo de regno laicus habens decem libras in bonis habeat pro corpore suo in defensionem regni unam sufficientem aketonam†, unum bacinetum et cyrotecas de guerra cum lancea et gladio. Et qui non habuerit aketonam et bacinetum† habeat unum bonum† hobirgellum vel† unum bonum ferrum pro corpore suo, unum† capellum de ferro et cyrotecas de guerra, ita quod quilibet sit paratus† cum actyliis predictis circa octabas Pasche proxime futuras.† Et quicunque habens decem† libras in bonis† non habuerit tunc omnia armorum actylia predicta perdat† omnia bona sua. Ita quod dominus rex habeat unam medietatem bonorum et dominus illius qui in defectu fuerit repertus habeat aliam medietatem.† Et dominus rex vult quod singuli vicecomites regni cum dominis locorum inquirant super hiis et faciant monstrationem† statim post octabas Pasche predictas. Preterea dominus rex vult et precipit† quod quicunque† habens valorem unius vacce in bonis habeat unam bonam lanceam vel† unum bonum arcum cum uno schapho† sagittarum videlicet viginti quatuor sagittis† cum pertinentiis† sub pena prescripta.

Basically every man with 10l or more- a sufficient aketon, bascinet, gauntlets of war (not sure we can say what these are mail or plate or both), lance, sword. It says they can also have a haubergeon or good iron plate torso armour and in place of the bascinet a skull cap.

Every other person needs a good spear or a bow with 24 arrows.

This is on pain of loosing all their goods so fairly hefty and the ones finding them lacking get to keep their stuff so I suspect this is incentive.

So aketons, mail, pair of plates, skull caps, bascinets mail or plate gaunts seem to be common by this point and swords, spears and bows mainstay weapons.

RPM
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Maks Roman




Location: Poland/Scotland
Joined: 08 Jul 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is simply awesome RPM!
One thing, could you tell me what do you mean by "every man with 10l or more"? I'm not too sure and would rather not guess Big Grin
Also, what does "Scot Parl. Roll for 1318" stands for? I have a very basic knowledge so please don't shoot me Big Grin
And when you refer to bascinets I guess they would be of construction rather similar to skull caps instead of the pointy ones, am I right?
Anyway, cheers for your help guys!
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 7:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries. 10 pounds of wealth or more. Basically they are something akin to the esquire class of Scotland. There is another one I cannot find like this but I'll keep looking for it.

Scottish Parliament Rolls of 1318. The government's official documents basically.

Not really sure about the bascients. I assume they have some loft to them as the skull caps are likely the simple round helmets we see and both are listed. I think they are likely pointed to some degree but early ones are different than late ones so take a look at art as there are 0 remaining example this early I know of.

RPM
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,290

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 1322 English Array is similar, requiring aketon, haubergeon, bascinet with aventail, and gauntlets for every man at £5, the requirements only being reduced at £2 , when an aketon and palet (skullcap) were acceptable. I presume plates would have been acceptable as a substitute for the haubergeon by this time considering the 1297 London requirement which allowed various substitutions as being equivalent.

Watch and Ward at the City Gates.
25 Edward I. A.D. 1297. Letter-Book B. fol. xxxiii. old numeration. (Latin.)

It was ordered that every bedel shall make summons by day in his own Ward, upon view of two good men, for setting watch at the Gates;—and that those so summoned shall come to the Gates in the day-time, and in the morning, at day-light, shall depart therefrom. And such persons are to be properly armed with two pieces; namely, with haketon and gambeson, or else with haketon and corset, or with haketon and plates.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Maks Roman




Location: Poland/Scotland
Joined: 08 Jul 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cheers mate, appreciate your help!

One thing that interest me is whether soldiers put something over their maille, like a jumpeon or a leather corselet or anything. I know knights would put surcoats or CoPs on.

BTW I'm really pleased with the fast and accurate help you guys provide here on the forum, seems like a great community that I'd be glad to be part of! Now only wait till I get back to Scotland where all my kit is and show of some of it Big Grin
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maks Roman wrote:
Cheers mate, appreciate your help!

One thing that interest me is whether soldiers put something over their maille, like a jumpeon or a leather corselet or anything. I know knights would put surcoats or CoPs on.

BTW I'm really pleased with the fast and accurate help you guys provide here on the forum, seems like a great community that I'd be glad to be part of! Now only wait till I get back to Scotland where all my kit is and show of some of it Big Grin


Regular soldiers wouldn't wear anything over mail except if padded armour was worn over mail. They had no jupons because they had no heraldry to show off with... Wink
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Which leads us to the question, "What is a jupon?" Is it a surcoat, or a padded armor? Anyway, there's a lot of evidence for armed men wearing non-heraldic surcoats in the late 13th and early 14th century.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Which leads us to the question, "What is a jupon?" Is it a surcoat, or a padded armor? Anyway, there's a lot of evidence for armed men wearing non-heraldic surcoats in the late 13th and early 14th century.


Non noble troops too? Do you have some artwork to show? I would like to see it, I like the idea for my own early 14th century kit...
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What criteria shall we use to determine non-noble status in a miniature? Lack of horse, lack of barding or armor for the horse, lack of leg armor, use of polearms or crossbows.....?

The men without leg armor, nobles or not? They have sleeveless, non-heraldic surcoats.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4154/12092/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4154/12094/

Are Herod's soldiers who are massacring the innocents nobles?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4507/9978/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4080/13073/

What about the soldiers arresting Christ while carrying pole axes?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5418/17736/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, too hard to determine that, I should have thought. Big Grin Thanks for the pictures!
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Maks Roman




Location: Poland/Scotland
Joined: 08 Jul 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The argument that nobles wouldn't arrest Christ or kill babies is pretty strong as far as I think.
That second manuscript of Herod's soldiers has a really distinctive way of portraying maille, I really like it.
So what about nasal helmets? Yae or nae?

Thanks a lot for your help Mart!
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are depictions of nasaled bascinets in the early 14th century.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=170850

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Aug, 2014 3:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another alternative worth considering is wearing a tunic over the aketon or hauberk. The Holkham Bible's illustrations show some examples of this and it might be a particularly appropriate source due to its English origins (since Lowland Scottish infantry kit wouldn't have differed too dramatically from that of their English neighbours at this stage).
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Sat 02 Aug, 2014 4:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Holkham Bible (c. 1327-1335) with full zoom on the folios:
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Add_MS_47682

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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