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Robin B.




Location: USA
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: scottish long sword with trefoils-need help identifying         Reply with quote

Hello. I am a newbie to this site and could really use some help. I inherited a reproduction (made in Spain?) of a supposed scottish long sword with trefoil terminations on the cross hilt (photo attached). Can you please provide any information/confirmation?
1) Did the Scots did in fact use swords with trefoil terminations such as on this sword? Is this an authentic repro?
2) Is is correct that such trefoils may be a rare variant and possibly precede the use of quatrefoils?
3) What is the estimated time period that such trefoil terminations were used? Approximate date of this sword used for this reproduction?
4) Is there any printed resource that could confirm such information?

Many thanks for your help.



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Highland long sword with trefoils [ Download ]
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin,
Welcome to myArmoury.com. Happy Your sword looks like a Deepeeka claymore (http://www.deepeeka.in/index.php?route=Scottish-Claymore-56.23556) minus the leather ricasso cover. It's not a terribly faithful reproduction of any particular sword and isn't very historic. The proportions are off, the shapes are off, and the weight is off. I know this because I used to have one. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad is correct. It is a Deepeeka-made sword which, while representative of the type, does not bear much resemblance to any historical two-handers associated with Scotland. The sword left their catalog a couple of years ago. It wasn't much of a sword although they make some which are a bit more authentic.

The question about trefoil versus quatrefoil is probably unanswerable. I do not recall ever seeing a two-hander with Scottish provenance with trefoils on the guards but that does not mean they did not exist. A relatively small number of Scottish two-handed swords survive.

Mass producers of historical swords don't always take great pains to make them authentic so I would take anything they produce and market as replicas of originals with a healthy dose of salt.

A photo of one of these swords as it was sold is attached.



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IronScot.jpg


Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Robin B.




Location: USA
Joined: 10 Jun 2014

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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 10:28 am    Post subject: scottish long sword with trefoils-need help identifying         Reply with quote

Thank you, Lin, for your thorough and timely response. I feel for my Dad who was sold such a sword as an authentic repro. Oh well.

Robin M.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It may well have been purchased in Spain. The touristic areas of Spanish cities are chock-full of stores selling cheap Asian-made swords at high prices for unwary visitors. In particular I spent an afternoon in Toledo a few years ago, and although the city is beautiful, the swords etc. for sale in the old city core did not do much to uphold its reputation as a renaissance center for fine bladesmithing. At least the ones I saw. Caveat emptor.
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James Moore





Joined: 27 Jan 2011

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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: scottish long sword with trefoils-need help identifying         Reply with quote

Robin B. wrote:

1) Did the Scots did in fact use swords with trefoil terminations such as on this sword? Is this an authentic repro?


Not on any that I've seen in any museum or collection. as a whole, there's very little that looks accurate about that sword.

Quote:
2) Is is correct that such trefoils may be a rare variant and possibly precede the use of quatrefoils?

not really. I would consider that rather unlikely regarding rarity - and it certainly isn't accurate for earlier types.

Quote:
3) What is the estimated time period that such trefoil terminations were used? Approximate date of this sword used for this reproduction?

Such trefoils can best be dated to the mid 1980s to the 2000's...

Quote:
4) Is there any printed resource that could confirm such information?


For an affordable starter book, there's a wee bit of info in Fegus Cannan's "Scottish arms and armour" that might well be worthwhile.
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 6:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did the Scott's use any two handers with parrying hooks? I don't recall any, but I believe they did use remounted German blades, any historical counterpart for those?

I wouldn't think so, but it would be interesting if they did.

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Jun, 2014 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew P. Adams wrote:
Did the Scott's use any two handers with parrying hooks? I don't recall any, but I believe they did use remounted German blades, any historical counterpart for those?

I wouldn't think so, but it would be interesting if they did.


German-produced blades were used on two handers and, of course, Flemish and German blades were common on the later basket-hilt swords. If by remounted you mean they were cast off blades that were re-hilted for the Scottish trade then I would say there was probably some of that going on but more likely the blades were imported new for the Scottish sword maker to install the hilt. There is a lot of discussion about Scots being too poor to afford new stuff but that is not accurate as records of goods imported from Europe show.

Robin, Fergus Cannan's book is a good source as is The Swords and the Sorrows now out of print and very expensive. Most references are going to picture a handful of swords - mostly the same swords - because there are so few extent. Ideally, at some point, you can visit Scotland and go to the museums over there where you will see them all in person.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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