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Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Skull cap with aventail... real or fake?         Reply with quote

While doing a little research for another thread I came across this skull cap / early bascinet.

http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/collections/peo...amail.aspx

Has anyone here seen this before. Is it real or is it a fake?

If it is real then it's an interesting specimen. It's leather liner is still intact, and it shows that the aventail was attached to liner, and not riveted to the helm, as some speculate was done on early bascinets.

Éirinn go Brách
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Skull cap with aventail... real or fake?         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
While doing a little research for another thread I came across this skull cap / early bascinet.

http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/collections/peo...amail.aspx

Has anyone here seen this before. Is it real or is it a fake?

If it is real then it's an interesting specimen. It's leather liner is still intact, and it shows that the aventail was attached to liner, and not riveted to the helm, as some speculate was done on early bascinets.


The camail looks like it is riveted mail at least.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The camail looks like a gusset. Notice the change of direction in the rows? Compare these at the Met.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-colle...amp;pos=81
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-colle...amp;pos=83

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Mart. I did notice the change in direction in the mail. This has me worried that it's a composite piece. I'm still hoping that it's real though :-D
Éirinn go Brách
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The helmet could easily be an "archer's sallet" or "secret" rather than a 13th or 14th century cervelliere or bascinet. The mail does not belong.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well that's always the danger with these skull caps. The design was used for a long period of time, making them really hard to date.
Éirinn go Brách
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Kevin Legg
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Location: High Wycombe
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jun, 2014 12:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
The helmet could easily be an "archer's sallet" or "secret" rather than a 13th or 14th century cervelliere or bascinet. The mail does not belong.


This is definitely a made up piece. The helmet looks to be a cut down sallet. Note the hole for visor mounting on the side and where the brow lining hole has been cut through when it was shortened. I would hazard a guess at Italian/burgundian for design.
I also agree with the mail being a voider and attached in probably during the late 19th century by an unscrupulous dealer embellishing it.
I would like to see the provenance the museum has to see whether this could be true.

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jun, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So a composite piece. I feared as much.
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jun, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It does look like the upper half of a sallet, but I would bet that it started life pretty close to how it is now - minus the armpit voider. It may have sported rondels over the ears, which is an alternative explanation for the hole visible there. Anyway, it still isn't going to be much use as a reference for you, Stephen; it looks to be an early 16th C infantry skull cap, like the sort you see depicted in Landsknecht woodcuts:



And a similar one I photographed in the Royal Ontario Museum:



-Jeffrey Hildebrandt

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Kevin Legg
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The thing that says cut down sallet the most is the alignment of the lining holes. You can see in Jeffs photo that the lining holes are spread evenly around the edge of the helmet unlike the helmet in question.
The side holes also have elongated with wear, the same as I have found on other sallets that have lost their visors.

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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 1:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

as an aside to the helmet Dean castle has a great collection, inc a stunning bascinet, a few decent swords and tapestries assembled by the Lords de Walden. Its one of the really good smaller collections and coupled with the fine buildings (estate farm as well as the main site) its well worth a visit.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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