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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat 22 Mar, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Armored Skirt: Bases         Reply with quote

Hello all! I have a few questions for you. Aesthetically, I have come to appreciate tunics, robes, kilts, and all such garments. When I train with my swords, I like to get into the right mindset and clothing I wear affects that as well. I happen to own a wool viking tunic and a green cotton tunic but the green tunic is a little too small and the viking tunic is much too warm. Getting to the point, I would love to just wear a kilt and a shirt but cannot afford a tunic at the moment. I do, however, have some smaller bits of fabric so I was wondering if some sort of war or battle skirt would be feasible and historical. I had been considering wearing some form of cloth skirt over my armor once I had bought or made some, so I did a quick google search about armor skirts and found very little. I did, however, find these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bases_(fashion)

and

http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/22285

These both say that there were cloth and plate skirts known as bases. First real question: Is this word pronounced in the usual English way, or in some other way? Next, do any of you have any more detailed information on these particular items, perhaps even some photos of historical pieces in steel and in cloth?

Thank you!

Looking to start HEMA!
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sun 23 Mar, 2014 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try googling "King Henry Tonlet".
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 23 Mar, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor, You just gave me an awesome idea for a 'armored kilt'....or maybe a 'kilt-of-plates'. Would need some suspenders, though, to avoid an embarrassing moment. Laughing Out Loud I usually practice my moves in a kilt, just for the freedom of movement it allows. One can never have too much leg and groin protection. Big Grin ..........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 23 Mar, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If someone builds one before I do, and you get rich selling them.....you owe me royalties! Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud .........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sun 23 Mar, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew P. Adams wrote:
Try googling "King Henry Tonlet".


I found that and it was a beautiful kit indeed! I really liked it! The tonlet really does look like it would be great for protection with how it seems to have been able to redirect blows away from the legs! However, I am considering the cloth bases which would have been worn over armor before the steel ones came into fashion. Sometimes they were attached to a doublet and sometimes they were just wrapped around the waist over armor. I am, however, interested in both.
[/quote]

Looking to start HEMA!
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sun 23 Mar, 2014 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
Victor, You just gave me an awesome idea for a 'armored kilt'....or maybe a 'kilt-of-plates'. Would need some suspenders, though, to avoid an embarrassing moment. Laughing Out Loud I usually practice my moves in a kilt, just for the freedom of movement it allows. One can never have too much leg and groin protection. Big Grin ..........McM


I do not currently own a kilt but I hope to buy one of the less expensive utility kilts once I have the money and I would love to practice my forms in it!

Actually, I was just today considering making a plated kilt or skirt and was also considering making one with heavily padded panels with interior straps to hold them to the legs but with plenty of cloth folds between the panels for ease of movement. Not at all historical, this idea, but would give me the aesthetic I desire and extra padding for the legs! I am, however, hoping to find a historical example to reproduce due to historical interest.


Are there any old renaissance paintings which would suggest a base being worn whether with doublet or without?

Looking to start HEMA!
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Mar, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd be interested to know if there is any evidence of leg armor being worn under a kilt. ....?.......McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Mon 24 Mar, 2014 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
I'd be interested to know if there is any evidence of leg armor being worn under a kilt. ....?.......McM


I have not been able to find any evidence of this. Apparently the lowland nobility who would have worn plate armor seemed to have nothing but disdain for kilts which were only worn by highlanders at the time. It was considered barbaric to wear a kilt, apparently. Let's do it! Wear a kilt over your armor!

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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Reading list: 56 books

Posts: 590

PostPosted: Mon 24 Mar, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is actually called a "tonlet"...you can find multiple pics here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tonlet+armor+pics&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=-mEwU-X8C4ec2AW9qIHoBw&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=625

and here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tonlet+armour+pics&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=amIwU-ujEKeA2gXQigE&ved=0CCQQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=625


OOOps...just noticed Matthew P. Adams beat me to it.

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Mon 24 Mar, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm down with that, Victor! I think it would look cool as hell to wear plate and a kilt to the Ren-Fests. History-correct......no. But, if it looks cool and your woman thinks it's hot....... Wink Laughing Out Loud ...........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Tue 25 Mar, 2014 6:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil D. wrote:
It is actually called a "tonlet"...you can find multiple pics here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tonlet+armor+pics&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=-mEwU-X8C4ec2AW9qIHoBw&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=625

and here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tonlet+armour+pics&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=amIwU-ujEKeA2gXQigE&ved=0CCQQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=625


OOOps...just noticed Matthew P. Adams beat me to it.


Are the cloth skirts worn over armor in the period fashion also known as tonlet?

Looking to start HEMA!
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Tue 25 Mar, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
I'm down with that, Victor! I think it would look cool as hell to wear plate and a kilt to the Ren-Fests. History-correct......no. But, if it looks cool and your woman thinks it's hot....... Wink Laughing Out Loud ...........McM


Go on ahead! Lol--Most people going to a ren fest don't really care whether what they are wearing is historically accurate or not. In fact, we get assassins, storm troopers, Legend of Zelda characters, etc. through ours all the time! In fact I heard a story once about a storm trooper wearing a kilt!

Looking to start HEMA!
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Tue 25 Mar, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

fabric skirts worn in the late 15th/early 16th cent are known as' bases'.

The highland kilt has no connection, nor was it ever worn with armour. Not that that will stop people :-)

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Wed 26 Mar, 2014 2:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
fabric skirts worn in the late 15th/early 16th cent are known as' bases'.

The highland kilt has no connection, nor was it ever worn with armour. Not that that will stop people :-)


Yes sir, I had found that they were called bases, but I do not know anything else about them. Can you help me here?

Looking to start HEMA!
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Wed 26 Mar, 2014 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

depends what you want to know.... they mimic the steel ones of course. Or is it the other way round?

Met Museum : http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/web-...156800.jpg

some cloth ones (could be part of or seperate to the upper body cloth covering) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ndarme.jpg

couple of views of the one in the Tower

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/2a/e2/...43cad7.jpg

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41676/41676-h/images/img31.jpg

http://www.royalarmouries.org/assets-uploaded...K-ii.5.jpg

The ones i wear for early 16th cent jousting are open at front and rear and attached to a waistband. Its sometimes easier to put on after mounting but either is possible.

Griff

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Wed 26 Mar, 2014 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

and you can see clearly where there are holes for a band to be attached so they can have a lining added too, pretty important.

Liking this pic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Gendarmes.jpg

I'd hazzard a guess that some of the horses have painted leather armour.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Wed 26 Mar, 2014 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
and you can see clearly where there are holes for a band to be attached so they can have a lining added too, pretty important.

Liking this pic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Gendarmes.jpg

I'd hazzard a guess that some of the horses have painted leather armour.


That is a very nice picture! I will be studying it more later! Do you know if bases were ever worn without armor? Are there examples of cloth bases worn in every day wear separate from a doublet? I know they are generally attached to the doublet but I remember reading that the armor ones can be worn without.

Looking to start HEMA!
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Dominic P.





Joined: 20 Feb 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed 26 Mar, 2014 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi I am afraid I cant really claim to no much, if indeed anything on this particular topic although I did find this rather interesting Picture. I hope it helps.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/canecrabe/528440...21996@N00/
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Wed 26 Mar, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dominic P. wrote:
Hi I am afraid I cant really claim to no much, if indeed anything on this particular topic although I did find this rather interesting Picture. I hope it helps.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/canecrabe/528440...21996@N00/


Thank you, Dominic! That is useful indeed! There seems to be little information on the topic, at least through search engines, but pictures help!

Looking to start HEMA!
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Wed 26 Mar, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

base coats are part of civilian fashion at the time. The more cloth and pleats the more you are showing off what wealth you have.

more info available from here:

http://www.tudortailor.com/

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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