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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Acceptable Training Longsword Reply to topic
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Ken Jay




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 141

PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Acceptable Training Longsword         Reply with quote

I'm searching for a quality training longsword. I think I made the mistake of getting an entry level trainer, Hanwei Tinker blunt, and am disappointed to date. The Hanwei Tinker (from KOA) arrived with one patch of the blade a bit thin for my taste and it has really been pounded in my classes. Some real serious nicks needing substantial filing to erase the serrated look and feel. IMHO, the blade seems a bit hard and the edges too thin to take even entry level practice work. Also, the second fencing session had the grip loosening and the pommel nut frozen in place defying all attempts to tighten or even dismount.

So, once this blade is done or no longer safely useable I'm looking to get another trainer longsword. While I've read the reviews here I would value any input on Ensifer, Albion, A&A, other similar brands. Thanks!
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Mike O'Hara




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Ken

I can understand your feedback, I had a similar issue.

I use the A&A Spada da Zogho and have found it to hold up to a pretty tough time, including someone with a spring steel blade. It was reviewed here on myArmoury
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_aa_zogho.html

The Atrim I-beam is also fairly well thought of , if you can find one!

There's this one about the Wulflund swords
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29579

Several of the club have used the Hanwei Practical Bastard sword, one for a few years and they have held up well also.

I suspect this may have come up before an another forumite can find the link to that thread.

cheers
mike

MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 3,902

PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you looking for a fechtbuch style of sword, or something that looks more like a regular longsword? For the former, I would go with an A&A. For something that looks more like a real sword, I'd go with one of the Albion Maestros.
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Jeroen T




Location: Holland
Joined: 23 Oct 2013

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 10:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

KOA sells Fabri armorum.

http://www.kultofathena.com/fabri_armorum.asp

Those are very good blades, the sell them in 3 kinds if im not mistaking.

1-Heavy training blades, they are a bit thicker like most of the blunt trainingswords from other makers.
2- show training a bit thinner and lighter but still tough enough for training
3-slim design, a blade as much as possible true to a sharp blade with weigth and balance without being unsufe for practise.

Here is thre site for more info.

http://fabri-armorum.com/english/index.php

Another that is on my list is Marco Danelli.
He makes custom blades but also has a standard line.

http://www.danelliarmouries.com/index.php/basic-swords
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Jimi Edmonds




Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Joined: 25 May 2009
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 144

PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb, 2014 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My favorite sword is the Albion Liechtenauer, I also have an A&A Fechterspiel.


Of late a lot of people have been saying that the feder type swords (narrow blade, schilt etc.) are the best safest swords, but personally I think it comes down to the person behind the weapon. I have also been pointed out to, about the 'true cross' which I shall try to learn more about.
In which the true cross is when the opponents blade is at your cross guard, and there for giving you a safe option to strike/thrust head on. Using a schilt on the other hand allows to not get into the 'true cross' and stay short of the guard making it less safe to attack head on.

It has been brought up that quite a few practioners don't get into the true cross while fencing and that they fence from the bind in a false cross (up the blade) there fore executing an (unsafe for your person) attack.

So that would be using a feder to attack the prosterior (if I got it right? the outside edges of the body). And a sharp or bluntsword with no schilt to attack the centre of the body. Anyway who knows could be folly could be plauseable?
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 456

PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When do you have hard impacts? I'm finding the more I practice, the more it becomes about keeping contact, feeling pressure, and sliding in while keeping cover. If a blunt is getting deep nicks, imagine what would happen to a sharp. I don't want to come off sounding condescending, but could it be the practitioner and not the tool?
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 160

PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew P. Adams wrote:
When do you have hard impacts? I'm finding the more I practice, the more it becomes about keeping contact, feeling pressure, and sliding in while keeping cover. If a blunt is getting deep nicks, imagine what would happen to a sharp. I don't want to come off sounding condescending, but could it be the practitioner and not the tool?


I'm truly a novice, but I have to agree with your sentiments. Most long-standing martial art traditions I know of revolving around the sword advocate that one should NOT hit the opposing blade if at all possible. As strong as swords are, they are also quite fragile.

This dynamic changes with the European blade as better materials come into play and the use of large shields declines. The two-handed sword becomes both the sword and the shield, and the user of the weapon needed to ensure that proper technique was used with the weapon not only to ensure his life, but his livlihood as well. If he escapes a combat with a broken sword but an intact life, that's paramount, but he's suffered a potentially huge blow to his livlihood by losing the weapon.

Therefore, my theory of the usage of swords centers around a lot I've absorbed from ARMA, as well as some common-sense perspectives from those like Matt Easton of Schola Gladiatoria. When deflecting a blow with the sword, if at all possible, one should use technique to mitigate damage to the weapon. Therefore I'll state that I believe actively blocking with the edge is a terrible idea. Physics just works against the weapon here - the edge bears all the force against the target with minimal area, and is often harder than the rest of the sword. Nicking, scalloping, and fracturing are all likely with an edge hit. How well the blade survives taking hits on the flat becomes a question of metallurgy and the other forces working on the weapon - this edge-vs-flat blocking issue is strongly debated, I know, but the only thing that will help put it to rest would be a proper scientific study covering all imaginable aspects thereof. I don't know of anyone who's done such a study yet.

...To finish on my thoughts, if you must block with the edge, do it. BUT, that should be an action of last resort. If you're doing some sort of rebatte with the weapon, an edge hit which is not perfectly aligned with the other blade (e.g. the blades hit the opposing edges at off-angles, not straight-on) should cut down on the damage because the force of one weapon may torque the other, resulting in some "give" in the hit. Otherwise, you have the strongest aspects of both weapons striking each other simultaneously.

It should not be wrong to push with the edge, however. After taking a hit on the flat, winding to push the other blade away is a sensible thing to do. Thus, both the strong part of your grip and the strong part of your weapon can now counter your adversary's strikes.

I can post some of the discussions I've listened to which have formulated these concepts if someone is interested.
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Ken Jay




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 141

PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew P. Adams wrote:
When do you have hard impacts? I'm finding the more I practice, the more it becomes about keeping contact, feeling pressure, and sliding in while keeping cover. If a blunt is getting deep nicks, imagine what would happen to a sharp. I don't want to come off sounding condescending, but could it be the practitioner and not the tool?


Perhaps I should clarify. I'm a beginning fencer learning both German and Italian longsword from seemingly qualified instructors. I've asked if my technique was defective and thus contributing to the undue wear/tear to the blade and handle. My technique appears to be adequate so we were left with questions as to blade quality and durability. No strikes to an opposing blade sounds slightly odd. How does one perform an zornhaw or oberhaw intending to strike the opponent (not his blade) and avoid all blade contact when the others fellow throws a parry? I feel this Hanwei's edges may be too thin as I've seen the edges on Albions, Ensifers, and even Hanwei Feders - all are considerable thicker and more resilient. So I'm still in the market for a more durable (or idiot proof) blade than this particular model.
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Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 702

PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeDFc2QQ-XU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyjeBPJVdac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kysxg6plugc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8BUJp-5CXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNxooEPpDsk

The discussion about edge Vs flat is pretty much decided in the HEMA community. Its really only ARMA and a few others keeping the debate alive. Read your sources.

Winter is coming
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Mark T




PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb, 2014 8:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Ken,

I'll second what Roger said: I think the main question is whether you want a feder/federschwert/fechtschwert or a blunt. In general, dominant practice in HEMA circles in the last few years has moved towards feders for full-contact drilling and competition, and blunts reserved mostly for solo drills and perhaps some slower drilling.

However, it also depends a lot on what your instructor prefers students to use ... and what everyone else has. A lot has changed just in the last 5 years - many groups have gone from using any blunt they could get their hands on, to Hanwei's attempt at a feder, to synthetics, and finally, to properly profiled, balanced, and heat-treated feders.

For background reading, check out Roger Norling's 'Fechtschwert or a blunt longsword?': http://www.hroarr.com/federschwert-or-a-blunt-longsword/

For feders, Peter Regenyei (http://www.regenyei.sg18.net/en_index.html) and Ensifer are two of the main choices, perhaps followed by Pavel Moc and A&A. For blunts, I like Albion's Liechtenauer, and I know others with Lutels.

You can find a review of Regenyei blades by Roger Norling at the HROARR site here: http://www.hroarr.com/regenyei-fechtschwert/, as well as A&A (http://www.hroarr.com/arms-armour-fechterspiel-sword/) and others. Roger also has a fairly comprehensive list of links to other makers.

Other models are also covered in the 'HEMA training longswords compendium' at HEMA Reviews: http://hemareviews.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/he...ndium.html, as well as Anton's video reviews here: http://www.youtube.com/user/HEMAreviews?feature=watch

You might also want to spend some time cruising the HEMA Alliance forum. I don't mean to direct people away from myA, but there's a lot of crossover of members between the two. HEMAA tends to be where 'spirited' discussions of gear and technique issues are hashed out, by those who train regularly.

Hope that's of some help.

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 456

PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb, 2014 11:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to clarify, I never said anything about edge vs flat, or about not having any contact. What I was trying to get across was that it seems to me that the type of hit that causes deep nicks is when both swords strike each other edge on edge and are moving directly towards one another. When you have glancing edge on edge hits where the blades are moving up or down the sword then the impact is redirected rether then absorbed by edge damage. One of my blunts is a Han Wei tinker longsword, and yes it gets nicks, but nothing to drastic as of yet. I do file them out after practice rather then allow them to accumulate.

I didn't want to sound insulting, I just wanted to bring up the possibility that exessive edge damage can be the result of technique, and if that was the case then you could save some training sword money. If you have two instructors who both tell you it's the sword, then it's probably the sword. Happy

My group has a couple ensifers bought here http://www.woodenswords.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1868
Two ATrim I beams I think we're purchased through Kult of athena, but they seem to be back ordered
The rest of the group uses a motley combination of hanwei tinker longswords, practical bastards, and practical hand and a halfs.

I have the hanwei tinker I mentioned as well as a Practical Bastard, I like the option of using different weights.
The ensifers and I beams look essentially new, my tinker blade does get nicks, but I maintain it and they haven't been excessive, the guard does seem too soft. The practicals have held up well but suffer in dynamics compared to the higher end pieces.

Right now I'm pondering a Chlebowski from http://www.szymonchlebowski.pl and am gathering reviews and info. There is some concern over soft blades, but that looks like a single instance of poor heat treat and the bad blade was replaced.

We mostly use synthetics, (pentii and the steel on steel is pretty much run what you brung. For most practice sessions with partners, and free fencing we use these pentii III http://www.woodenswords.com/ProductDetails.as...2DIII%2D50

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Ken Jay




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 141

PostPosted: Mon 07 Apr, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An update...

Kult of Athena exchanged the damaged Hanwei for another. A shout out for their customer service! The replacement's blade has no excessively thinned edges appearing better ground for a training sword.

I'm still looking to replace the Hanwei at some point and thank all for the recommendations. All I need to do is choose. Big Grin
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Wed 09 Apr, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ken Jay wrote:
How does one perform an zornhaw or oberhaw intending to strike the opponent (not his blade) and avoid all blade contact when the others fellow throws a parry?



I think you are misunderstanding what was described. When you cut a Zorn at the man your edge should also hit into the flat of the oncoming oberhaw, displacing it. When hitting into the flat the first contact may actually be on the edges but the force of the impact is not edge-into-edge, rather the force of the impact is edge-into-flat. If you are hitting edge-into-edge it may be due to holding the too low at the start of your cut or you may be pulling your hilt to your left side, both of which results in more of a stop rather than a displacement. ARMA members are able to perform all of the German and Italian longsword techniques with little damage to their swords. During my 14 years in ARMA I have never see a blunt sword get hacked up form drilling or sparring. Do we get nicks in our blades? Yes but ever rarely.

Respectfully

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Ken Jay




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 141

PostPosted: Wed 09 Apr, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Ken Jay wrote:
How does one perform an zornhaw or oberhaw intending to strike the opponent (not his blade) and avoid all blade contact when the others fellow throws a parry?



I think you are misunderstanding what was described. When you cut a Zorn at the man your edge should also hit into the flat of the oncoming oberhaw, displacing it. When hitting into the flat the first contact may actually be on the edges but the force of the impact is not edge-into-edge, rather the force of the impact is edge-into-flat. If you are hitting edge-into-edge it may be due to holding the too low at the start of your cut or you may be pulling your hilt to your left side, both of which results in more of a stop rather than a displacement. ARMA members are able to perform all of the German and Italian longsword techniques with little damage to their swords. During my 14 years in ARMA I have never see a blunt sword get hacked up form drilling or sparring. Do we get nicks in our blades? Yes but ever rarely.

Respectfully

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW



Randall:

I understand the edge-on-edge block is not desirable. I've had my share of such in my learning process with resulting nicks on the blade. I think most of my strikes have been angled edge-to-edge or to the flat. I really think the first blade was less than optimal. The replacement sword appears more robust with more constant edges. We'll see how it hold up with my novice fencing. Thanks.

Ken
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Wed 09 Apr, 2014 11:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Capanelli wrote:
Read your sources.



Indeed, do read the sources. But also remember that all of us are dealing with interpretations of the sources.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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