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Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Feb, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Images of twohanded swords on ships?         Reply with quote

Hi everyone!

I would like to ask your assistance in finding images of use of two-hand swords on ships, dating to 15th cent and onwards. The later the better, but anything will do.

Thanks!

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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andrea Vicentino's early 17th-century painting of Lepanto has a bloke with a two-handed sword in the bottom centre amidst the red oars:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...entino.jpg

I don't know how accurate that is, of course, and I'm too lazy to look for a detail on that particular part of the painting.
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Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you. I will add one of my own, although it depicts events in 810AD, in proper 16/17th cent fashion.


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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that your request may be a long time coming in any large amount. Two-handers were surely aboard ships at some points in time, but I doubt they were used for on-deck combat. Just not enough room, with masts, men, and mayhem. Certainly a cool image to have in one's mind's eye, though. Wink ..........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 10:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, I am fairly sure they were used for combat, as there are written accounts of their use. With time they came to be the Navy's equivalent of the spontoon, ie a symbol for the higher officers, but in the beginning they appear to have been used for combat. Possibly primarily for the same main purpose as on land, for use when outnumbered as a last line of defense.

As for space, it depends on context and skill to use the surroundings. As late as in 1651 Diogo Gomes de Figueyredo advises on the use of the Montante, both with a few sequences for use on ships and in narrow alleys. This is roughly the same time as Sweden has about 3000 boarding swords, thought to be of this design, and Denmark using the same, for example with admiral Pros Mund who used one while defending his ship against the Swedes and the ship Göteborg on October 13 1644. The length of the two-handed navy swords varied though, with some as short as about 1m. A normal length however, is 130cm, and a weight of about 2.2kg.

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Radovan Geist




Location: Slovakia
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 10:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"...I doubt they were used for on-deck combat..." I´m not sure about that, Mark. There are accounts of two-handers used for fighting on board (Portuguese and Spanish using montante swords, etc.) See these two older threads: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26727 and http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=25425

Roger, they might be interesting also for you as they contain some references that could lead to more pictures you needed ("there is also a good picture of a 2-handed sword being wielded on board ship in a 15th cent. Froissart manuscript illumination of the battle of Sluys" and maybe some more).
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Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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Posts: 109

PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do remember seeing some Renaissance woodcuts depicting battle scenes, but I can't find them right now. Anyone?
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Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 11:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Radovan! I was just posting about the Montante myself. Happy

Here is the one from Chronique d' Angleterre of ca 1470-1480, depicting much earlier events at Battle of Sluys. They may not be proper two-handers though and only used as such.



 Attachment: 197.99 KB
Chronique d' Angleterre-f276-ca1580.jpg


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Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another version of the same scene.


 Attachment: 137.59 KB
Froissart-Battle of Sluys-ca1470-80.jpg


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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Feb, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Andrea Vicentino's early 17th-century painting of Lepanto has a bloke with a two-handed sword in the bottom centre amidst the red oars:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...entino.jpg

I don't know how accurate that is, of course, and I'm too lazy to look for a detail on that particular part of the painting.



I've been in a small boat, and swung a true two-hander and I can't imagine doing both at the same time! Makes me want to try it!!

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Fabrice Cognot
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Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri 21 Feb, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger :

Go there
http://mandragore.bnf.fr/jsp/rechercheExperte.jsp
and in 'Descripteur1' type 'bataille.navale'
Make sure the 'Les images numérisées' button is checked (top of page).
Click on 'Chercher', and then on the following page on 'Images". A new window will pop up.

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Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sat 22 Feb, 2014 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow! Beautiful Fabrice! Thanks!

Using schlachtschwert actually makes a lot of sense, not just in the context described earlier, but also between ships, which is very much like line battle anyways, trying to stave off the boarders. Shorter pikes were of course also used.

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