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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Questions on Crafting a Barbute from One Piece         Reply with quote

Hello all, please forgive me firstly if I have somehow missed an essential introduction thread--Hi! My name is Victor! Pleased to meet you all!

Secondly, please forgive me if there is already a thread of this type.

Now, onto business: I am looking to make a solid steel helm, no visor, that reaches past my chin. I suppose I could say it would have the full coverage of a great helm but hopefully forged from a single disc of steel then perforate the face plate for full visibility. I have seen how I could potentially make a conical helm with this method, but is there a way I could make a barbute or sugarloaf out of a single piece? Or if not, is there a way I could forge the cap out of one piece with a more back-facing point and ridge then use another piece to make the rest?

This project is to make a HEMA sparring helm for use with Rawlings synthetic wasters. I know that the steel will damage the synthetic blades but I figure I can cover any rivets and edges with rawhide or leather to protect the blades.

Could this work?

Thank you!

Looking to start HEMA!
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Edward Lee




Location: New York
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

Posts: 314

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I saw this Barbute making video on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZTxFipP_3k
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah I've seen that video and it is an awesome piece! However, I am looking for how to make one without welding. I do not have any welding equipment and I never learned MIG or TIG.
Looking to start HEMA!
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Edward Lee




Location: New York
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

Posts: 314

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What about that technique where a guy on youtube used for making sallet? I think he raised it from bottom up.
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've not seen that one! I'll try to find it unless you have the link. I saw the Norman helm made by raising a single disc and it worked well for a conical helm. I know I can do that design but I'm looking to make a helm with an off-center point, BUT I am not totally set on that design if I can't achieve it at this stage.
Looking to start HEMA!
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Edward Lee




Location: New York
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

Posts: 314

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm no smith I don't know what off center point is Sad . But here is the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxE51_DLo0
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah! That is more of my own term than a technical one. What I mean is this:



instead of this:


Looking to start HEMA!
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,287

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bascinets are usually raised in one piece, though the visors are separate, Even the Aranäs "Great helm" has a raised, single piece top if you want that sort of helmet. The Royal Armouries and Pembridge helms have riveted top caps, but the lower plates are welded hoops. Why are you opposed to welding?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's not that I am opposed to welding, I just do not have any of the necessary equipment and I never learned MIG or TIG welding. I know ARC would be too powerful and I've not done it in years.

Thanks for the info though! Would you happen to have any links to further information about the formations?

Looking to start HEMA!
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 612

PostPosted: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You really do not want a steel helmet to train with Rawlings wasters. It will destroy them. A simple fencing mask or even a hockey helmet is more than enough protection once you get to the point of sparring. Trying to learn fencing by bashing around until you figure something out is seriously a waste of time.
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sun 16 Feb, 2014 4:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Will covering the edges and rivets with rawhide or leather not work? Also I know and we do not plan on just bashing away to try to learn. We are going to use books and videos to learn just for now because there is no one remotely near us that teaches longsword. The closest group or school is 2.5 hours away. Either way we will be doing our best to be practicing the historical techniques.
Looking to start HEMA!
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Kevin Legg
Industry Professional



Location: High Wycombe
Joined: 05 Sep 2013

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun 16 Feb, 2014 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Raising a barbute is not any more difficult than a norman conical helm. It purely need more time and a larger disc of steel.
Have a look at this facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.639991362701248.1073741830.164081036958952&type=3
It has hourly pictures of the barbute as it is raised. you will see that the shape evolves in the same way as would a conical helm.
This one started as a 26 inch diameter circle. It took 20 hours on the forge before the final finishing.
Go for it. It will take you ages but as with any armour project it will be well worth it
Good Luck Big Grin

Working weld free since 2008
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 16 Feb, 2014 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The trouble is you are trying to combine two items, the sword and the helmet, and each has different functionality.

Fight synthetic with synthetic and steel with steel. Making a steel helmet and then covering with rawhide here and there might work but it will be a heck of a lot of work.
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Sun 16 Feb, 2014 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome to myArmoury Victor.

I would like to suggest that you ask this same question on Armour Archive.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/index.php

Also in the patterns section of ArmourAchive there are helm patters
http://armourarchive.org/patterns/

There are some very friendly and helpful folks there.

As to the helm you want to make, you probably will have to weld two halves together that you dish and shape separately and then weld together.
I suggest cutting out construction paper and using tape and glue to make a 3D pattern and then do your metal work.

Yours In Service

David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Tim Harris
Industry Professional



Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 06 Sep 2006

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sun 16 Feb, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll echo Kel here Victor.
Some years ago, I made myself a burgonet instead of forking out for a decent fencing mask.
It quickly became apparent that it was going to chew non-steel training weapons to shreds.
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Victor Sloan




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 15 Feb 2014

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Mon 17 Feb, 2014 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
The trouble is you are trying to combine two items, the sword and the helmet, and each has different functionality.

Fight synthetic with synthetic and steel with steel. Making a steel helmet and then covering with rawhide here and there might work but it will be a heck of a lot of work.


Thanks Mark! I completely understand. I may still try it someday but I will probably find an alternative for a while.

Thank you as well to everyone involved so far! I have been given lots of good advice and I really appreciate it!

I may or may not continue to try to use the steel helm for synthetics but I believe I still want to make one. I would like to move to steel blunts eventually.

Looking to start HEMA!
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