Javelin Throws -- myArmoury.com

Jaroslav Jakubov · Posted: Thu 23 Jan, 2014 5:17 am Post subject: Javelin Throws

I'm researching for some info about ancient javelins, anyway i run into contradicting info that just confuses me a lot.

i found this document online about ankyle, yet info in that document sounds a bit strange to me:

http://www.coloradomesa.edu/shared/facprofile...eofthe.pdf

they mention that javelin launch velocity increased from 4m/s to 5.4m/s, aren't these speeds a bit low for a projectile that is supposed to reach 25-30m distance? From other sources i found on internet, usually maximum speed javelin can achieve is stated to be 30m/s for modern Olympic javelin 800g heavy... that's quite a difference.. i know modern javelin throwing is done from short run, anyway still, release speed almost 8x higher doesn't sounds right to me..

any insight on this topic?

Benjamin H. Abbott · Posted: Thu 23 Jan, 2014 7:23 am Post subject:

The folks throwing at such low speeds likely just weren't terribly good at it in relative terms. You see this dynamic for lots of historical weapons, though the disparity in atlatl numbers across published studies is perhaps the greatest. I generally believe the higher numbers come closest to how such weapons performed in the hands of experienced warriors.

For example of how non-Olympic experienced throwers throw, see Sir Baldwin Spencer's Native Tribes of the Northern Territory of Australia. Spencer wrote that men in community on Melville Island managed to throw a ten-foot, four-pound spear 104-143 feet (31-43.6 meters). So the worst thrower in this test, throwing by hand, did as well with a much heavier projectile as the folks with the ankyle.

However, the Melville Island throwers had a running start of up to twenty feet, while the ankyle users could only take one step forward. Come to think of it, that could easily account for much of the difference right there.

Looking at it some more, I think the high-speed camera failed to accurately record the throw velocity. According to this calculator, a projectile released at 5.4 m/s at a 45-degree angle would attain a range of less than 3 m in a vacuum. You need about 17.5 m/s to reach 31 m - and air resistance would increase that.

As an aside, Spencer's numbers support the notion that at least heavy spears/javelin could penetrate armor. Even the shortest throw probably had over 300 J of kinetic energy initially. This stands consistent with Vegetius's claim and has long made me wonder why thrown javelins or spears mostly fell out of use in the sixteenth century.

Márk György Kis · Posted: Thu 23 Jan, 2014 1:40 pm Post subject:

Mind the phrase: STARTING velocity. It will get more 'a' in that 'v'. Furthermore, another study confirmed these numbers.

Jaroslav Jakubov · Posted: Fri 24 Jan, 2014 3:25 am Post subject:

[quote="As an aside, Spencer's numbers support the notion that at least heavy spears/javelin could penetrate armor. Even the shortest throw probably had over 300 J of kinetic energy initially. This stands consistent with Vegetius's claim and has long made me wonder why thrown javelins or spears mostly fell out of use in the sixteenth century.[/quote]

I think it was mostly due to lack of skill with throwing javelins.. Roman Legionaries practiced it every day to be proficient with it, Germanic tribes used Angon in Britain for quite some time too, and were used until replaced by bows not because bows were more effective, but because it was easier to shoot from bow than throw the javelin effectively. And once javelin throwing was not practiced, it just disappeared..

Jeffrey Faulk · Posted: Fri 24 Jan, 2014 5:24 am Post subject:

Jaroslav Kravcak · Posted: Fri 24 Jan, 2014 8:52 am Post subject:

Are there any properly done tests on how would a javelin thrown with force mentioned earlier perform against plate armour, maybe even compared to other types of projectiles from longbows, crossbows, firearms from 15th/16th century?

Once thrown, it would generally only loose energy in a flight, while swinging poleaxe with full force seems to have much more devastating potential to me. On the other hand it seems to me like a one handed spear thrust would be inferior in its penetrating capabilities to thrown javelin, but maybe its only my feelings, based on how much stress Im able to put on my single hand, when stabbing into something. (It feels much easier to throw javelin and let go from hand at short distance, that to thrust with it.)

What about capabilities of mentioned javelins compared to thrusting spear/couched lance from horseback?

I can recollect one example from Muntaners chronicle of Almoghavar duelling Athenian knight, it stated he burried his javelin deep in a horse and then proceeded to finish off the knight trapped under his horse, that fell in the meantime. Almoghavars seem like savages, that could very well preserve ancient traditions of javelin throwing and be a good example of it, but it wasnt clear from the text, if burried javelin was thrown, or thrusted.

Ben Coomer · Posted: Fri 24 Jan, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject:

Benjamin H. Abbott · Posted: Fri 24 Jan, 2014 3:16 pm Post subject:

There were certain groups - notably the Irish - who used javelins extensively through the sixteenth century. But English accounts describe Irish as darts as not particularly effective. As skirmishing weapons, light javelins/darts strike me as thoroughly outmatched by bows and guns, mainly because of their much lower velocity and thus range. What's curious to me is how, even as everybody and their brother was trying to revive the Roman legion, no military writer I know of discussed the heavy javelin. The sword and target saw significant use in the field, but javelins much less. Fourquevaux did describe targeteers hurling fire pots or grenades at pike formations before closing with the sword, with friendly pikers following right behind them. So the basic it was there, but with grenades instead of heavy javelins.

Philip Dyer · Posted: Fri 24 Jan, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject:

Benjamin H. Abbott · Posted: Sat 25 Jan, 2014 7:27 am Post subject:

Another factor is that only folks in front of friendly pike formations could throw javelins effectively, both because they need a running start and because pikes would block javelins. So javelin-throwing targetiers would have to go before the pikes as in Fourquevaux's arrangement. Targetiers did sometimes use pistols in the sixteenth century in addition to grenades.

Anyways, going back to classical context, theorizing that well-thrown javelins could pierce period defenses such as mail and shields goes a considerable ways toward explaining the prevalence of javelins in warfare for hundreds of years.

Additionally, it's my understanding the sword-shield-javelin combo saw more use in the fifteenth century.

Benjamin H. Abbott · Posted: Tue 19 Aug, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject:

To amend my earlier statement, Diego de Salazar's 1537 rendition of Machiavelli's Art of War does equip targetiers with two javelins (dardos) that they are to throw from the front of the army. And Matthew Sutcliffe's 1593 military treatise mentions equipping targetiers with half-pikes both to throw at infantry and hold fast to resist cavalry. So at least a few 16th-century military authors did conceive of reviving something like the pilum. I don't know whether any of these plans were realized in practice.

Bartek Strojek · Posted: Wed 20 Aug, 2014 9:40 am Post subject:

Lafayette C Curtis · Posted: Mon 01 Sep, 2014 2:21 am Post subject:

Alexis Bataille · Posted: Mon 08 Sep, 2014 11:50 pm Post subject: Really :) ?

300 joules for a javelin ? You sure x) ? because its far more powerfull than a bow (100-120 joules) perhaps that's a reason that we see more javeliners than archers in greek warfare ?

Benjamin H. Abbott · Posted: Tue 09 Sep, 2014 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Really :) ?

Alexis Bataille · Posted: Tue 09 Sep, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject:

wow 300-400J, impressive ! But i was asking to myself about greece warfare like 500 BCE,there where far more light skirmisher Pelast with a small shield and javelins than archer. It was because bow where very expensive or because bow was not strong enough to pierce shield ?

Jaroslav Jakubov · Posted: Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:59 am Post subject:

using simple calculator, for a javelin to reach 40m while being thrown at 30 degrees you need at least 25m/s release speed, but that is for vacuum. so actual release speed to get that far would have to be higher. Adding amentum/ankyle to a javelin would increase its release speed, so it could get even farther. From what i saw, trained university athlete was able to throw 800g heavy javelin with ankyle at range around 50-60m, and that was just after brief training how to use it properly. again, to get that far, release speed had to be quite high, and while it would decrease at range, it would still be higher than 9m/s (free fall) most likely around 14-15m/s or more, which would still give heavy javelin a lot of punch. (2kg javelin at 14m/s gives 200 joules)

now if we take light javelin used by peltats, which were around 300-400g heavy, adding ankyle, these could get quite far i think, we might be even surprised how far.. some ancient authors mention some performances at Olympic games, where some athletes were able to throw javelin across the horse track field (i'll try to find exact statement later). yet, i guess, impact speed would be a bit higher due to longer throw, but of course momentum of 300g javelin will be much lower than for 2kg pilum..

Benjamin H. Abbott · Posted: Tue 16 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 8:46 am Post subject:

From very early times (oldest found is 27.000 years ago from France) many people also used wooden spear-throwers that greatly increase range and power of javelins. According to this site the world record for a wooden atlatl (aztec word for a spear-thrower) is 230 meters set by a Finnish guy!
Source: http://www.ancientcraft.co.uk/News/2012/28_07_12.html
That it's pretty damn long and must mean an awful lot of power compared to a standard hand javelin throw.

I remember seeing greek vases where they used a string ankyle instead. It's probably not as long range as a wooden spear thrower; but should still be more powerful or more accurate than a hand throw.

Source: http://schoolworkhelper.net/wp-content/upload...-throw.jpg

Source: http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/14300/14399/acontium_14399_lg.gif

Articles about the ankyle and spear throwing beside the one mentioned in the first post:
https://www.academia.edu/2631534/Recreating_the_Ancient_Greek_Javelin_Throw_How_Far_Was_the_Javelin_Thrown
&
https://www.academia.edu/1406260/Throwing_the_Greek_Dory_How_Effective_is_the_Attached_Ankyle_at_Increasing_the_Distance_of_the_Throw

Conclusion is from the second paper that throwing a greek spear with ankyle cause an 50% increase than if throwing without.

Benjamin H. Abbott · Posted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject:

The first paper by Murray and company is fascinating because of how poorly the ancient replica javelin performed compared with modern sporting javelins. The athletes threw the 450g replica 33-50m by hand while they could throw the 800g sporting javelins 60-70m! Even with the ankyle they only managed 56-66m.

In a vacuum you'd need around 23 m/s to throw a javelin 50m at the typical 30ish-degree release angle. That'd only be about 120 J. Around 27 m/s for the 66m throw with the ankyle would be roughly 160 J. By contrast a 70m throw with a 800g modern javelin would be approximately 300 J. Of course, given the apparent worse aerodynamic properties of the wooden replica, the energy figures would likely be higher than in vacuum, while with the modern javelins they might be slight lower.

Thanks for sharing that study. I do wonder if differently designed replica javelins would have performed better - perhaps stiffer and/or thicker wood, etc.

If Irish darts had similar kinetic energy and range (120-180J and 50-70m) then I can see 16th-century English observers didn't find them particularly impressive.