Goliath's spear -- myArmoury.com

Sheldon Rhodes · Posted: Tue 21 Jan, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: Looking for your help

OK, I'm new and don't know much about historic arms. However, I found you folks so feel I found those who can help me.

I'm looking for Goliath's spear. Ya, the real/original one would be nice but not likely to come up with that. So where can I get one just like it? I'm looking for one to match the description found in the Bible in I Samuel 17:7 "His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels." Six hundred shekels come out to be 15 lbs. Yes, I know how heavy that is. Do I really believe it was that heavy? Ya, I do. If it was or wasn't, I still want one that size.

First, what would it look like? David was King of Israel in 1026 BC so we are talking Iron Age. We know Goliath was a Philistine from Gath. The fight between David and Goliath was in the Valley of Elah in Israel. So what might it looked like? Please send links to pictures if you would.

So, a spear head made of iron weighing 15 lbs would likely be around 16-18" long IF it had 4 blades and was 4" at the base. The staff may have been 2 1/2 - 3" dia and 12-15 feet long. Well, that is about what I come up with but again, I'm not the expert. BTW, I haven't found if Ash grows in that area but I know Oak does. Any thoughts?

Second, when we decide what it may have looked like, who could make it for me? (Actually would like 2 of them.)

Thanks in advance. This is going to be a fun project. I will be sure to post pictures when it is finished.

Mark Moore · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 1:10 am Post subject:

Try a web search of 'Spear of Destiny'.....the spear that supposedly pierced the side of Jesus on the Cross. That would be near your time period. You realize that there was never a spear so huge ever made....right? Unless it was THE spear of Goliath.....made just for him. That would be a big damn spear, Laughing Out Loud

........McM

Mark Griffin · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 4:11 am Post subject:

Matthew Amt · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 7:40 am Post subject:

Hoo, where to start? Goliath's story has a lot of confusion and problems, some ancient and some modern. I would have to say that a 15-pound spearhead is flat-out exaggeration. Sure, most every culture has produced very rare examples of spearheads that are 2 feet long or more, but even those are made for a shaft about an inch in diameter, and weigh a couple pounds at most.

I generally go with Yadin's interpretation of the whole "weaver's beam" being a description of a spear or javelin with a throwing loop. *I* wouldn't want to throw a spear with a 15-pound head, though I guess that would be preferable to being *hit* by one... The vast majority of spearheads from various eras that I've seen were made to fit a shaft about an inch in diameter or a little less. Sure, some were bigger, though many more were smaller. Of course, you can argue that the top of the shaft was tapered to some extent if you like, though this seems to be the main argument for folks who want everything to be heavier and thicker than it was in ancient times.

The shape of the spearhead is most likely going to be a leaf-shape, though the socket could be long or short. Hmm, I seem to just have photos of shorter to mid-length sockets, no long ones, but here:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/greekweapons.html

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/Levspr1.jpg

Those are all in the range of 9 to 12 inches.

The mix of iron and bronze weapons is certainly appropriate for that era. Bronze was still the metal of choice for armor, though, and that would continue for another half-millennium or so. A big modern part of the confusion about Goliath is the ongoing chronology problem--all the Bronze Age dates are artificially inflated by about 300 years, so it's very hard to draw parallels to other cultures or events.

Oh, another bit is that Goliath was probably NOT over 9 feet tall. There is at least one other surviving text with that passage, that puts him at about 6'6". That's still a good foot taller than most guys at that time, so he's still a giant! But we can work with his equipment much more realistically on that basis.

If you're bent on a 15-pound spearhead, have fun! No idea what to tell you about how to get it up to that weight...

Matthew

Phil D. · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 8:18 am Post subject:

This may be a good and inexpensive substitute.It has size without the weight...just add your own shaft:

https://www.museumreplicas.com/p-557-hewing-spearhead.aspx

Overall: 19-1/2"
Blade: 3/16" thick, 2-1/2" wide, 13" long

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 8:21 am Post subject:

I understand that we're in the fantasy realm, but as a general rule, the longer the haft, the smaller/lighter the head. Bear spear heads are massive, the hafts thick and short. Pikes are the length of what you're describing but have lighter heads.

As an experiment, try holding any 36" sledge hammer with both hands at the far end of the haft. That's what your spear head is going to feel like on the end of a 12' haft, at best.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 8:25 am Post subject:

Speaking of Windlass, I have this one and really like it (I chopped the socket)

http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=600766

The form covers a broad chronological range.

Mart Shearer · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 8:36 am Post subject:

While the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate "4 cubits and a span", 6'9"/2m or so, the possibility of "6 cubits and a span", 9'9"/2.97m from other translations should not be readily discounted. Consider the example of Robert Wadlow, the Guiness Book of Records tallest man who reached 8'11"/2.72m at his death, with a top weight of 492lb/223kg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow

Martin Kealey · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 9:25 am Post subject: Goliath

I would certainly favour the 6-7 ft size as more realistic over the 9-10 ft for Goliath. Giants, especially of the size of Robert Madlow, tend to be relatively weak and very prone to health problems (Lock Martin, who was 7'7", and who played Gort in the original Day the Earth Still Still, could not even lift Patricia Neal, and was quite debilitated by cardiac issues. Ted Cassidy, the original Addams Family Lurch, who was close to 7', also suffered cardiac problems and died young). Thus a 9-10' Goliath would probably be unable to do any fighting at all; be barely able to wear and carry the panoply and weapons needed and be only a frightening show piece, or paper tiger.

Daniel Wallace · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 9:42 am Post subject:

neat discussion.

15 lbs on a 6 foot haft - as Sean describes, is unreasonably weighty, for any man to hold on to. at the most, 8-10lbs even that isn't easy for a bigger man to handle but more reasonable.

Graham Shearlaw · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 10:44 am Post subject:

I too favour 6 to 7 foot tall size for Goliath, matched with a large build and you easily have your giant without them being crippled at all.

Look a wrestlers André the Giant or Nikolai Valuev the boxer, both men easily tower over a normal modern man of 6 foot.

Michael Anderson · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 11:19 am Post subject:

A friend of mine is married to Ian Whyte, ex basketball player, the predator in the recent AvP franchise and the navigator in Prometheus. He stands 7'3" and is of an athletic and powerful build. Scary thing was meeting his ex team mates at their wedding who were even bigger.

So I can imagine exceptions pushing beyond the 7"6 mark and still remaining built like a warrior.

Anyway, slightly OT but I thought I'd share this example

Eric W. Norenberg · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 11:21 am Post subject:

I don't think pushing eight feet is unrealistic- there are plenty of examples of folks with gigantism who were/are physically on the fragile side, but plenty of folks who approached that and were very fit and strong, even if short lived. Google helped me find Jorge Gonzàlez, an 8'-0" (Andre the Giant was 7'-4" I think) wrestler and basketball player, Yasutaka Okayama, 7'-6", NBA draftee and second degree Judo black belt, and the fairly well documented (although some of his feats maybe approaching the realm of "tall tales") Angus MacAskill, Scottish -Canadian strongman, 7'-9".

There are some Chinese weapons (iron staffs) that weigh 8-10 lbs, and are probably not meant for regular combat by regular practitioners (somebody set me straight if I'm wrong), but if a fairly average sized, well conditioned practitioner can work out with something like that, I have a hard time believing that any of the three fellas I've listed above couldn't at least heft a 15+ pound spear in a convincing, menacing manner, even if something lighter would be more practical.

I'm not trying to argue anything like "Bible all True!!!", or "Bible all fables!!!" here. I'm just trying to suggest a degree of historical plausibility to the project. There have been a few similar ideas floated here at myArmoury, I recall a discussion about what the sword Simon Peter may have carried would have looked like, and I personally love stuff like this, chasing links to the past.

Sheldon, if you go through with this, please do post photos! And don't forget, you will need a sling to display along with the spear.

Best,
Eric

Peter Messent · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 11:47 am Post subject:

Raman A · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 11:50 am Post subject:

Wadlow died at 22 and could barely walk. He was also only 8'11", so a 9'9" warrior is clearly hyperbole. 6'9" is realistic and definitely gigantic size, even by today's standards.

Interestingly, 2 Sam 21:16 references a 7 pound spearhead.

"And Ishbi-Benob, one of the descendants of Rapha, whose bronze spearhead weighed three hundred shekels and who was armed with a new sword, said he would kill David." (NIV)

It seems like it's just literary device used to convey physical strength. I'm not sure what a 15 pound spearhead would even look like, but its dimensions would be massive.

Sheldon Rhodes · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 11:58 am Post subject:

Now we're talking. I love reading the posts. Keep them coming.

So far, it sounds like maybe Goliath's spear head would have been a leaf shape like the one Phil D. posted a picture of? Does that sound about right to everyone?

The 4 blade version at 4" was just a thought as to how to get the weight up there. I took the volume of a cone and tried to allow for the scrap to come up with something that might be about the right length and weight. But if we are talking a leaf shape, it's back to the drawing board for sure.

As for the length, that was figuring that it would almost have to be taller than he was and hefty enough to somewhat offset the weight of the head. OK, so you have to be more of a man than I am to use it but that is beside the point (no pun intended).

We know that King Saul was head and shoulders taller than most of the people under him (no pun intended). We know that Goliath was considered a giant to even Saul. So somehow I get the picture that Goliath was like really tall. Yes, I'm aware of the artifacts that have him as 4 spans, etc but on the other hand I tend to be a Biblical literalist. I even believe in talking serpents, talking donkeys, people walking on open water and dead people living again. I'm just silly that way. So for me to believe he was 9' + is kind of easy. I read prior to that that there were other giants in the land. Granted, he may have been big and pretty much a wimp. The fact that he was so huge made everyone afraid of him. He may have been all bark and no bite but I would likely have been like the others, too afraid to put it to the test. He very well may have had health problems. I know he was surprised when he got hit with the rock. Nothing like that had ever entered his head before. Just saying.

Looking forward to more comments, suggestions and insights.

Eric W. Norenberg · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject:

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject:

Peter Messent · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject:

Mark Griffin · Posted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: