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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject: Any extant examples of mail like this?         Reply with quote

Does anyone here know if any mail like this survives? The important thing to me is that the sleeves are joined together. I don't care about the shape of the sleeves.
[img] https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Wjdofx8Yu-o/UsrtoC0ynBI/AAAAAAAACJM/E0YgKQBaGgc/s400/woundedknight.jpg [/img]

Thanks!
Mac



 Attachment: 160.35 KB
woundedknight.jpg


Robert MacPherson
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

None that I have any knowledge of but there is an awful lot of unpublished mail in reserve collections.

There was a discussion about this a few months back...
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
but there is an awful lot of unpublished mail in reserve collections.



That's exactly what I am hoping, Kel.
Mac

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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I went to the DMH museum database and found the sleeves Toby mentioned in the other thread. Neither they nor any other piece in the collection are cut away the same way as in the illustration but a number of them are quite short in the torso compared to the sleeve length.

I have to admit several of the examples there have changed my perspective on the construction of the sleeve assembly. As noted in the other thread, there is simply a band of mail across the back and some closure assembly in the front on many examples. It solves the problem of why the exemplar for my latest harness has a button and overlap on the integral mail collar. Gah! Back to the drawing board. Worried
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a pic of the sleeves that Kel was talking about. They use fabric instead of mail to turn the sleeves into a short garment. Indeed, in some ways it is superior to the arrangement in the Italian illustration. Being thinner, it takes up less room under the cuirasse, and the lower corners of the mail are constrained in a way that keeps them from escaping from the arm holes.

Inventarnr. W 80/1

This is very cool!

[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WPtkk0NoKrE/UsxEc6vzxSI/AAAAAAAACJc/m7Dk9FTo7kY/s640/sleeves%2520in%2520DHM.jpg [/img]


(I am having trouble getting the image to show.... I hope this is working for everybody)
Mac

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Last edited by Robert MacPherson on Tue 07 Jan, 2014 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From that same collection, we have this one as well.

Inventarnr. W 5240

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b0HK4MZ9yv4/UsxSqKcSdLI/AAAAAAAACJs/p8HdoOH9HH0/s640/W%25205240.jpg[/img]



This is more like what I was looking for in the first place. I think we are looking the back here, but it is hard to tell.

Mac

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T. Kew




Location: Cambridge, UK
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree that you seem to be looking at the back. Those very thin joins on the far side look a lot like they could be fastenings for the front, so you pull it on and then join it shut there.

The other thing that could reduce the risk of it pulling out at the arms would be adding a few points to hold it to the arming doublet. I'm thinking about making one for myself and adding a few points around the base of the mail on my undergarments, so I can pull it on and then point it to hold it down, which seems like it should be pretty quick and fairly resistant to pulling out of place.

I wonder how the arms are constructed on these - could they be made in a similar way to a fencing plastron, where there isn't a seam in the armpit itself? That would seem to marginally increase the strength, as long as they're always being worn with spaulders and so on as well.
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:

I wonder how the arms are constructed on these - could they be made in a similar way to a fencing plastron, where there isn't a seam in the armpit itself? That would seem to marginally increase the strength, as long as they're always being worn with spaulders and so on as well.


T.K,

Here is a thread on the subject of sleeve tailoring. http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=157253
I have a false start, but in the end I get it right.

Mac

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Oct, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cross-posted from p.12 of the authentic mail pictures thread.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331&start=242
Eric S wrote:
Here is something interesting, it looks authentic.

European riveted mail arming sleeves, unknown age and origin. The Royal Armoury (Livrustkammaren) in the Royal Palace, Stockholm, Sweden.

High resolution image. http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/originals/3...8ef3ea.jpg



http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e...6fce7c.jpg

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Oct, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks like this sleeve, E 105, from the same Swedish museum might be half of a pair. How else to explain the strips of mail hanging off of it?

http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
It looks like this sleeve, E 105, from the same Swedish museum might be half of a pair. How else to explain the strips of mail hanging off of it?

http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView


Mart, this particular museum has a huge stash of mail (http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...0&sp=F), all seemingly photographed a long time ago in what at the time was probably very good quality black and white. The image you posted could be the same set or second set, it is very hard to tell for sure if this is a half or a whole one that is being draped over a bar.

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Two separate items, not only separate photos.

The paired sleeves you first posted are inventory number 23300 (2584).
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView

The single sleeve with strips is inventory number 23321 (2586).
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView

You are quite correct on the large number of B&W photos of mail. A useful site to add to your Pinterest collection!

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Bartek Strojek




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Question for the knowledgeable - is the assumption that those were rather late 15th century innovation correct?

As in, most of the 1st half of century armor would have still been worn with full mail shirt, perhaps lighter one, of course.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are records of separate mail sleeves, worn under pairs of plates as early as the 1320s or 1330s. The question of when they stopped sewing them or pointing them to an aketon or doublet, and simply attached them to a linen shrug or only with belts or strips of mail is more problematical. The Vatican manuscript miniature has a written date of 1460 below it. Earlier than that is guessing.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Two separate items, not only separate photos.

The paired sleeves you first posted are inventory number 23300 (2584).
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView

The single sleeve with strips is inventory number 23321 (2586).
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView

You are quite correct on the large number of B&W photos of mail. A useful site to add to your Pinterest collection!


Mart, it sure looks like a single sleeve but the image is so blurred its possible that it is a whole one that has been doubled over. I have been going over the images for awhile but the descriptions are so bad along with the fact that many of the photos are not clear that its hard to figure out exactly what many of the mail items are for sure, I mean their exact origin and method of manufacture, age etc.

This collection is a prime example of how museums let historically valuable items remain unidentified and unphotographed or badly photographed, I would love to spend some time cataloging their collection of mail.
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Robert MacPherson
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are great finds, guys!

Mac

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin brought this example up on the "Authentic mail pictures" thread.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=293027#293027

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126377022@N07/14780434032

Quote:
Image from page 450 of "Illustrated catalogue of the exceedingly rare and valuable art treasures and antiquities formerly contained in the famous Davanzati Palace, Florence, Italy" (1916)



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Eric S




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Mark Griffin brought this example up on the "Authentic mail pictures" thread.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=293027#293027

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126377022@N07/14780434032

Quote:
Image from page 450 of "Illustrated catalogue of the exceedingly rare and valuable art treasures and antiquities formerly contained in the famous Davanzati Palace, Florence, Italy" (1916)


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Mark Griffin




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan, 2015 2:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a wee theory.... wondering if the trunk hose on bottom left of pic in the inventorio illuminado are meant to go over the brayette? I'd like to try riding in some but I'm worried about what perching atop my expensive saddle in a buttock filled scouring pad will do to the fine leather.....

Its always struck me how closely the whole thing looks like one of those 'assemble your own knight' sticker albums/fridge magnets beloved of castle gift shops around the world....

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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