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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 7:53 am    Post subject: Odd 13th century facial defence         Reply with quote

I was doing some research when I came upon an illustration from the Lives of two Offas, from the mid thirteenth century. The illustration depicts a fully maille armored knight, but he is wearing a solid plate defense on his face. It resembles the front of a great helm, but it is worn like a mask over the coif, covering only the face, not the top or sides of the head. Is anyone familiar with this?
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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
Joined: 02 Apr 2009

Posts: 483

PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This one.
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/illma...07000.html

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, that's it
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Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

maybe it is a chain hood worn over a back of the helmet
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, from the detail in the picture it is clearly worn over the maille
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,290

PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, other people are familiar with it.

1. Although the manuscript as a whole is dated to circa 1250, some of the miniatures including the one in question were added later and are dated by the British Library to c. 1320.
Quote:
The difference between Matthew's style and that of the 14th-century additions can be seen by comparing this drawing with the similar battle scene on f. 3v.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4089/12324/

2. As far as anyone has determined, this is a one-off illustration, with no other known examples showing this.

My personal opinion is that this shows a face mask laced to a mail coif with plate cervelliere beneath.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could it be a mail coif worn over the greathelm?
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the illustration it is clear that is not the case
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks! I wanted to make a reproduction of it
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