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Hans Wretfors




Location: Sweden
Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun 22 Dec, 2013 3:19 am    Post subject: Medieval curved blade for reenactment         Reply with quote

Hello

I have been practicing mounted archery for allmost a year now and me and my friends have desided to pick up fensing to. We have/are "Middle east" personas when we ride so I'm looking for swords from that region with a curved blade that we can use in reenacments or just having fun fighting each other. I have been looking at the Shamshir http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=FA48, but I can't find any information from what timeperiod this sword is. I know that the curved sword dindn't become "every mans sword" until the early 14 th century and I don't want to by a sword that is post middle age.

So my first question is if there's someone with more knowledge that me that can help me?

My second question is if anyone have read "Persian Archery and Swordsmanship: Historical Martial Arts of Iran" by M. Manouchehr? I've seen a youtube clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SKhC9X5_YU, and wonder if I/we can learn the basics of swordfighting with curved sword on our own from that book?

Many thanks, Hans
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Dec, 2013 4:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're a Swede, reenacting a Persian? WTF?! Okay, The Fabri Shamshir should serve you well. Very well built sword for the money, and one of only a few Arabic models I know of for reenactment fighting. As far as learning technique of its use, you will have to consult someone else. I'm of Swede/Scottish descent, so my style tends to lean toward straight bladed longswords. Sorry on that. But, once again, that Fabri should hold up well to pretty tough bashing. Big Grin ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Hans Wretfors




Location: Sweden
Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun 22 Dec, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well with my 184 cm, 108 kg, blond hair and copper-red full beard I'm allways misstaken for a persian Wink . Because I have a passion for horses and have 8, and like archery is the combination self-made. And because the mounted archery is a Turko-mongol and middle east tradition I dosen't much chiose, I'll be a Seljuk persona when I ride because of the light leather armor, third picture from the top the guy with the blue shield http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.p...-Pictures.
The problem is when I'm dismounted. I want to fight with a curved sword on planned shows and exhibitions because there is allready alot of strait-sword fighter due to the knights.
I have been thinking about a Ghulam cavaleryman but I don't know if they used strait or curved sword, I've seen picturs with both. When I think about it maby I should named this thread "Did the ghulams use curved sword and can a shamshir pass as one of there swords?"
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 22 Dec, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Straight swords were used in that region until at least the 12th century. After that it was mainly Turks who used curved blades. AFAIK the shamshir didn't become popular in Persia until the 16th century. Manouchehr's Arms and Armour from Iran will have more info.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Dec, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hans Wretfors wrote:
And because the mounted archery is a Turko-mongol and middle east tradition I dosen't much chiose


Lots of choice! Russian, Poland-Lithuanian, Hungarian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, various North American peoples. Don't forget Turkic groups in Europe (e.g., Avars, Cumans).

I'd say that the Fabri Armorum Avar sabre would be better - definitely Medieval. The early steppe sabre works as a Seljuk sword. The famous example is the Charlemagne sabre.

Manning Imperial does some Medieval sabres: http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/swords/sabres/51

Some relevant swords here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26519

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Dec, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think you will be able to learn Persian Swordsmanship with just the book, mate. But Manouchehr is a real martial artist, and he's trying to spread his Ramafzar Art around the world at the moment. So if you were to contact Manouchehr on Facebook (under his name or under "Ramafzar") and I'm sure he'd be keen to get some more interested practitioners. He's always keen to help me out when I query him on stuff...

I've even got a good teacher of Turkish Archery (from Turkey) if you're interested. The advantage to Turkish Archery is that the bows are nearly identical to Korean bows (except the handle area) and can be used to practice that style as well.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

अजयखड्गधारी
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Hans Wretfors




Location: Sweden
Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been looking at the thread Timo recomended and there is a very nice curved sword on the first page 1 post 4. It's made just before 1300 so it's absolutly mideval and it has that nice curvature I'm looking for. I've googled for mamluk swords but all I found is the US-marines "mamluk-style sword". Dosen't anyone sell "authentic" mamluk replicas?

I've found some swords I like but I dont know if there mideval or later

Hungarin: http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=FA35
Another hungarin: http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=FA35B

The Avarian sabre is a reall' beut' but it dosent have that nice curvature I'm after.

I have contacts with a reenectment group that does western style medival reenectments. They are good, they have competeed in the Swedeish tornament championship. They ar good in fencing with broadsword and I wonder if it's a good idea to start with a strait sword to lear balace and footwork?

Maby I should clarify that I 'll use the Seljuk outfit when I ride because it is light and if (or rather when) i fall off there isn't a ton of metal that brakes my fall and I need the lateral movement that a leather armor can give me. I'm a nurse and have worked in a ICU-unit and now I'm working as a OR-nurse so I have seen my fair share of accidents with horses so safety is a BIG issue for me. The Sword I'm looking for is gonna bee used when I'm dismounted and maby some day I have made a nice outfit that is contempery with the sword.
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 12 Mar 2008

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have the Avar Saber from Fabri. I love it except for one thing, the guards a press fit so they can rattle in time WTF?!

Other than that it is superb. I would consider VIktor B also, he has a better range of Sabers than Fabri does and Fabri has a good range of Sabers.

http://www.schwertschmiedeviktor.de/en/sct/0/

I plan on ordering one from him eventually. Oh yes, Hungarians used Sabers since the 11th century or so. You could substitute the Iranian swordsmanship for the Polish as Polish have detailed manuals on Saber fencing. The Hungarian Fabri Sabers you linked to are either 16th or 17th century.

A few words...

My group was hesitant to let me use a Saber, then again there were hesitant to let me use a falchion as well. They came up with an argument, semi reasonable one, that the falchion was nothing more than a one edged mace with all its force on one blade. To an extent this is true but they don't hurt that much more than a single handed broadsword and certainly not more than a good whack from a hand and a half. In short, they eventually let me fight with both my falchion and saber, but not without ring and circus before hand of inspection after inspection. The fear was, with the saber anyhow, that it would poke too far into a legal helm. I ended up cutting mine down about 1/2 an inch and rounding it off. So after three tries of shortening and rounding off the tip, I asked "Can't we just check it?"

One of the senior members in my group let me do that. It stuck in an 1/8th of an inch into a legal helm, more than legal. He just nodded his head and said it would be okay to use. I did do work to my Avar Saber. The pommel wastoo heavy on it, so I reground the back and sides of it, lightening a bit. Between that and shortening the blade, it now has a 4 inch pob. Handles well, but the cross guard is loose even after regripping and tightening the wood slabs with senu cord. I'm going to have to find someone to spot weld the guard onto the blade shoulders Sad. I have three Fabri swords, they are good over all, I just wish they'd weld their cross guards onto the shoulders rather than having it press fit.

Newbie Sword collector
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven Janus wrote:

My group was hesitant to let me use a Saber, then again there were hesitant to let me use a falchion as well. They came up with an argument, semi reasonable one, that the falchion was nothing more than a one edged mace with all its force on one blade.


They've bought into myths about falchions. Either that, or they're worried about "replicas" made by people who bought into myths about falchions.

Steven Janus wrote:

To an extent this is true but they don't hurt that much more than a single handed broadsword and certainly not more than a good whack from a hand and a half.


Of course.

A good approach would be to have sensible limits on mass (and mass distribution) for all weapons. Should also insist on the re-enactment versions approximating the real weapons in mass and mass distribution. This would immediately get rid of "club falchions".

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hans Wretfors wrote:
I've been looking at the thread Timo recomended and there is a very nice curved sword on the first page 1 post 4. It's made just before 1300 so it's absolutly mideval and it has that nice curvature I'm looking for. I've googled for mamluk swords but all I found is the US-marines "mamluk-style sword". Dosen't anyone sell "authentic" mamluk replicas?


Well, because most people don't have the slightest idea of what an authentic medieval Mamluk sword looks like, so there's not enough of a market for production models based upon it. Besides, that curved sword from the end of the 14th century seems to have been an outlier in an era when Mamluk swords were still predominantly straight, so I'm not surprised to find that nobody's mass-producing it. I'm afraid you'll have to go the custom route for this, or at least buy an appropriate-looking blade and start a DIY hilting project with it.
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Hans Wretfors




Location: Sweden
Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was afraid of that Lafayette, because it's been so hard to find something online. It look's like it's gonna be the shamshir I liked to in the first post and do a makover of the handle and make my own scabbarb.

Thank you everyone for the input, I'll be back with pictures if Seljuk armor and my "mamluk" sword.
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Leo Rousseau




Location: France
Joined: 27 Dec 2013

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 5:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi !

I may be late, but here are my two cents. Fabri Armorum is a Czech maker, you can have their swords directly trough their website (and don't pay tax thanks to the EU ) : http://fabri-armorum.com/english/. Their swords are very popular amongst French reenactors and I had several of them in hands (including some curved blade). They all have the same problem : they are badly balanced, heavy and the pommel is wielded instead of being riveted.

I strongly recommend you to give a thought about Viktor Berbekucz ( http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/angol/angol.html) . He is used to make oriental weapons (you can see some of it in his website). I own a reproduction of the Charlemagne Saber (it is blunt an weight a bit less than 900gr) that I frequently use. It is a very good sword.
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Hans Wretfors




Location: Sweden
Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if anyone have tried Cold Steel's shamshir? I have found some rewievs online and it seems like the sword is well worth the money and a good starting sword for training.

I can ask at the same time if anyone have tried Viktor Berbekucz's shamshir?
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 12 Mar 2008

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hans Wretfors wrote:
I wonder if anyone have tried Cold Steel's shamshir? I have found some rewievs online and it seems like the sword is well worth the money and a good starting sword for training.

I can ask at the same time if anyone have tried Viktor Berbekucz's shamshir?


The Cold Steel is a SHARP weapon, for test cutting and drilling sure but not sparing Eek! ! Good weapon though I hear. I'd try the Victor B sabers or Fabri. What that other gent said about Fabri being overly heavy isn't true of all of their products. All the products I have owned from them were a fair weight and well balanced for the stage sword category. There is nothing wrong with welded pommels, it just isn't historical but I mean lots of other stage sword vendors like BKS weld pommels and guards. I just wish their guards were welded to match instead of press fit.

Newbie Sword collector
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