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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Question about tradiitonal Talwar hilts         Reply with quote

Hello, I have been looking at 'vintage' Turkish Karabela hilts and found one I want to buy on ebay. I contacted the seller and they told me it is raw iron with silver gilded onto it. My original thought was to drill holes through and peen rivets through both ends, through the tang of whatever blade I purchased. However, the more I look at the particular hilt I am looking at purchasing, the more I think it is meant to be glued onto a tang like a Tulwar. Well that's great and all but what kind of glue was used back then to make it secure enough for war? What kind of glue can I get from a home depot today to glue it onto the tang? Thanks again in advance. The hilt I was looking at is below. The ebay seller has lots of other Shamshir, Kiliji, and Karabela hilts for sale also besides the one listed in this post too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171189287929?ssPageNa...1423.l2649

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Jussi Ekholm




Location: Tampere, Finland
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Resin was traditionally used. I believe there were various recipes for different types of glues/resins.

Here are couple good threads at Vikingsword which you might find helpful.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10171
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2312
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13637

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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I own a good number of tulwars and shamshirs from all over the Arabian Peninsula and Central South Asia .

some are riveted, these tend to be from the Peninsula and the 'glued' hilts from Asia. I had a formula stored on another forum but that thread has been deleted.

As a for instance though, that is not exactly very old or vintage, Worried It is as one of my Afghan friends once said 'an antique made yesterday'

David L Smith
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh I have my doubts whether or not the one listed in my ebay link is 'authentic'. I just want an inexpensive way to build a Turkish Karabela and it fits the bill Big Grin. The gent selling it claims it is iron and not pot metal, that's all that matters to me! I'll of course inspect it before doing any work to it. I had contacted Darkwood, more famously known for rapiers, since they make saber blades also. They gave me a more than reasonable price but were unsure on how to secure it to the blade, so all information helps. if all else fails, I'll do it myself with a Windlass Hungarian Saber blade. Thank you all for your help.
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Search Ebay for mamluks. Also search for 'marine saber'

I have built a sword based on hilt I bought. I actually have a second hilt if you are interested. I have bought a hilt from the same seller as you listed, they are very 'light'. Notice there is no photo from the 'sword end'

This is one that I built, 'Middle East meets Far East'



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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David, I thank you but I am 'specifically' looking for a Karabela style hilt. I have seen pictures of your Katana bladed shamshir before and it is very loving I must say! Those cooper rivets look straight out of Tandy leather factory I must say. very nice!
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you use an epoxy or some such from Home Depot or where-ever, be certain to clean the tang of your blade very thoroughly before you use it. Any old resin or rust or whatever on the tang will interfere with the glue bond, and you definitely don't want a poor glue bond attaching 3 feet of sharp steel to your grip...

As to what to specifically use? If it will be visible, a clear epoxy might be best; you can add dyes or paints to colour it to your liking. The product called "JB Weld" is greyish once mixed, so perhaps best for a hidden joint, but is extremely strong and durable (not to mention reasonably priced!).
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good ole JB Weld will do great then, thanks Jeff. Dave, I further read your comments and realized that you had bought a hilt from that seller and it was too light. I'll see what I think. I did purchase that one I posted just now in this topic. I'll look at it and see for myself. I'm going to do a magnet test, to see if it is iron or steel, amongst other inspections first prior to mounting it myself or shipping it off to Darkwood. As long as it is sturdy, it won't bother me if it is light. Many Turkish and other Islamic sabers have very light hilts with narrow blades for moderate to heavy point of balance. I'll see what I think when it arrives in person. I also ordered a pre owned Windlass Hungarian Saber from Kult of Athena.
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Option two

You could make one ( Big Grin )

Rivets were made by me, simple heavy duty copper wire Big Grin [tandy Humph!] WTF?!

I used the hilt I bought from them to make a sword for a friend that bellydances so she wanted balance point near the center of the blade

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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David, my apologies to you! Every rivet I get is from Tandy. Do you mean make the blade or hilt myself? I don't have that kind of knowledge but I feel, that if I wanted to, I could undo the peen on the Windlass Saber I just ordered and mount it to the hilt. I may want to keep it as is and use a Darkwood blade instead. I'll see when it all comes in.
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve, no offence taken on my part, i meant that to be funny

I am sure you could make a hilt. If the first one does not work out, make a second a third a forth and how ever many it takes. Making a sword pushes boundaries and really gets one in tune with the weapon.

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Steven Janus




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I might be able to do it if I bought the right stock. Well it is a waiting game now.
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David,

I had received the hilt and it is light, but not a feather weight by any means. I'd say it is about half a pound to a pound. The metal is definitely iron, it passed the magnet test but it has a problem. There is an outline for the tang inside the grip and it only goes as far back as where the metal cross guard ends into the girp. So the tang is going to be very short. I'm switching which Windlass blade I'm going to use, I asked KOA today to cancel my order for the Hungarian Saber blade and made a switch to a different Windlass sword, an English Cutlass. I found a place online that sells steel rivets and washers so I will have to rivet it through the end of the cross guard. I'll use either a 1/8th or 1/16th rivet. I'm thinking 1/8th as it isn't that much thicker and will provide more strength. the junction where the sword will rest against the cross is rather, well hollow and may require a spacer as well. It is still a good kit, made of good iron, but not as easy to mount as It thought Big Grin

Regards,

Steve

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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
There is an outline for the tang inside the grip and it only goes as far back as where the metal cross guard ends into the girp. So the tang is going to be very short.


You can't get set up with someone who has a metal shop and perhaps drill-press a series of parallel holes in order to extend the tang slot downward into the material of the grip?

I would be very nervous about a tang that short, personally. The only way I would be halfway comfortable with something like that, even if you JB-Weld'd it, is if it was pinned through the guard and grip together.

The sword assembly will be much more robust and safer if you can come up with some way to extend the tang slot... setting the grip vertically in a vise and drill pressing straight downward through the slot for the blade, making multiple holes in a line and then breaking any remaining metal away with a chisel or file, should do the job.
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
Quote:
There is an outline for the tang inside the grip and it only goes as far back as where the metal cross guard ends into the girp. So the tang is going to be very short.


You can't get set up with someone who has a metal shop and perhaps drill-press a series of parallel holes in order to extend the tang slot downward into the material of the grip?

I would be very nervous about a tang that short, personally. The only way I would be halfway comfortable with something like that, even if you JB-Weld'd it, is if it was pinned through the guard and grip together.

The sword assembly will be much more robust and safer if you can come up with some way to extend the tang slot... setting the grip vertically in a vise and drill pressing straight downward through the slot for the blade, making multiple holes in a line and then breaking any remaining metal away with a chisel or file, should do the job.


Yeah, that's actually what I'm going to do except I am going to do it myself. A bit after I posted this I tore apart the wooden slabs with the ivory bricks off the metal grip. I never carved a grip before but now I will. I found some buffalo horn slabs on ebay meant for making knives that met all the dimensional requirements for my grip so I'll carve it out with a dremel. I'm going to use my drill press to make the tang slot longer in the metal part of the grip.

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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am sorry the hilt did not work out how you wanted it to, but I am also happy you are now starting down the slippery slope of custom work.

Pretty soon you will be making your own fittings and blades

(big grin)

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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
Quote:
There is an outline for the tang inside the grip and it only goes as far back as where the metal cross guard ends into the girp. So the tang is going to be very short.


I would be very nervous about a tang that short, personally. The only way I would be halfway comfortable with something like that, even if you JB-Weld'd it, is if it was pinned through the guard and grip together.


On some tulwars, the tang doesn't go past the mid-grip bulge. So about the same length as this. Pinned through the guard and filled with resin (or epoxy), and you'd have something OK. Yes, somebody used to full tang European swords might well recoil in horror.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Dec, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote





For clarification to what I was writing. Really the way the stock tang slot is cut only leaves room for 1 1/2 inches, approximately, of tang space. That's pretty much it. This isn't a Tulwar hilt, the reason why I posed the question that way was because initially I thought it was meant to be glued into place, now I can see I can modify it and do a 3/4 tang like a true Arab saber, but to do so I must destroy the wooden slabs already there and that I did as evident by the above photos.

David, I have done plenty of custom work before. The list includes, making and modifying armor, sharpening and reground swords, reshaping and regripping sword hilts, thinning out and detailing sword cross guards. I have never made a wood grip for a sword though. Technically I'm not making a wood grip for this one either, it will buffalo horn Big Grin. I got all the needed tools, anvil, ball peen hammer, drill press, angle grinder, dremmel, and 1 by 30 belt sander. I should be good.

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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote



Coming along...

Got the Windlass Cutlass blade. It is sharpened and inserted. Buffalo horn slabs have arrived a long with steel rivets and I have the bar stock in the garage to make the steel spacer for the crossguard slot. This is just a mock up of course.

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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a good start.
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