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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Harmonics of two-handed swords         Reply with quote

Hello,

I recently received a new sword from Peter Regenyei. It's his Montante 1, found about halfway down on this page. The blade is blunt with a 1mm thick edge.

http://www.regenyei.sg18.net/en_twohanded.html

I've never felt anything quite like it. I'll do my best to convert the measurements for your convenience.

Length: 68.5'' (47.24'' blade)
Weight: 5.512 pounds (I have no idea how to format this correctly)
Point of balance: 1.969'' from the cross

It moves very easily with the close balance point and the 20'' long handle. What I'm interested in learning more about are the blade dynamics and how they might be different from smaller swords. My own tests have given me the following numbers for the two harmonic nodes.

Blade/center of percussion: 20.08'' from the tip / 27.17'' from the cross. This is right about where the fuller ends closest to the tip.
Handle: 5.906'' - 7.874'' down from the cross towards the pommel. I find this hard to tell exactly, but it is close to the middle of the handle where it begins to swell.

The blade is also quite loud when struck, clanging with a bright and long-lasting tone. The center of this sound seems to be about 11.81'' from the cross. If I tie some cloth around this point it diminishes the sound somewhat.



So, anyway, I have read that the harmonic point for the handle in longswords is usually found right below the cross. This helps to avoid vibration damage to the hilt. Is this supposed to be the same for larger swords as well? Or do the change in proportions cause inevitable differences in the sword's characteristics at the harmonic level?

I'm always looking forward to learning more. And again, sorry for my poor measurement formats. Happy
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: Harmonics of two-handed swords         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
So, anyway, I have read that the harmonic point for the handle in longswords is usually found right below the cross. This helps to avoid vibration damage to the hilt. Is this supposed to be the same for larger swords as well? Or do the change in proportions cause inevitable differences in the sword's characteristics at the harmonic level?

Basically, on any kind of sword it should be roughly around the point where you grip the sword, to prevent the vibrations from a hard impact hurting your hand.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the harmonics of these swords has been a mystery to me, as I can't get my hands on any truly historic sword to understand more about them. now there was a paper published and linked up here a while back 'Using geometry to analyze the mass distribution of hand-held weapons" by Vincent Le Chevalier. within his paper, with one given balance point of a sword, your able to extrapolate the harmonic nodes of a sword. I haven't had the time to really understand how his equation's work and some of it feels like it's a little beyond me. I might be able to use it a little better if I used it with a practical application first before applying it to some of the information I have on some two handed swords.

I would also think that these swords should balance out with a node at the hand - but given their overall size, it could be something more difficult to do.

that's for the little review Emily, we can all get a scene of a swords size by measurements, but the nodes are more of a hold and handle thing to understand.
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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The placing of nodes and pivot points on original swords does not follow a cookie cutter template, but they are not haphazard either.

The grip node on long gripped swords is seldom placed at 2-3 fingers distance from the guard for example. This is something you might find primarily on single hand swords.
On really long gripped swords you might find the grip node halfway to the pommel.
This may well be contrary to popular ideas on what an ideal sword should be, but that is non the less often the case with original swords. I believe they are made the way they are not because of a lack of understanding, but rather from a really good understanding of what is important.

The risk, or challenge you have to deal with with any training blunt is that the inevitable extra mass at the point (even if it is slimmed down to a minimum) changes the handling characteristics into something completely different from a sharp sword.

If you focus on one or two features and try to get these to match an original sword, you might run the risk of unintentionally changing the other aspects of the dynamics of the sword into something that is no longer a sword.

A training blunt is always going to be more or less different from a sharp sword. That is unavoidable. The trick is to get the overall effect as close as possible to that of a sharp weapon of the type.

This is not always easy as modern practitioners might have strong opinions in regards to one or two of their favorite aspects of the dynamic balance of a sword. If you for example focus mostly on point of balance and placing of nodes you might loose track of other important aspects of the sword.

Sorry, I donītīknow if all this makes any sense. What I am trying to say is that it is difficult to present a selected number of characteristics that a good sword should express, and then expecting that *all* good sword should follow this template. There might well be very important aspects that are left out of the "perfect picture" that play an equally big role in deciding the functional quality of a sword.
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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2013 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Harmonics of two-handed swords         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Emil Andersson wrote:
So, anyway, I have read that the harmonic point for the handle in longswords is usually found right below the cross. This helps to avoid vibration damage to the hilt. Is this supposed to be the same for larger swords as well? Or do the change in proportions cause inevitable differences in the sword's characteristics at the harmonic level?

Basically, on any kind of sword it should be roughly around the point where you grip the sword, to prevent the vibrations from a hard impact hurting your hand.


The placing of pivot points are as important or even more important in impact dampening than is the placing of vibration nodes.
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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all,

Thanks for your contributions. Mikko's sentiment makes sense to me but

Peter Johnsson wrote:

On really long gripped swords you might find the grip node halfway to the pommel.


I've tried out the same node identification test on all my big 'uns and the above is true for all of them. That includes this sword from Regenyei, Arms & Armor's montante trainer, Albion's dane and a german zweihander from Lutel. They all have fairly long handles. Even when gripping this sweet spot there is still vibrations noticeable in all the swords. The only way to truly control it is with a second firm hand on the pommel.

The dane is the only sharp sword of the bunch, although I intend to get a sharp copy of Regenyei's sword as well.

Daniel,

Daniel Wallace wrote:

Emily


It's Emil. Wink


Anyway, I would also love to get to feel and handle a period montante or somesuch.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
The only way to truly control it is with a second firm hand on the pommel.


And that *is* the general idea after all.
:-)
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Wallace wrote:
Now there was a paper published and linked up here a while back 'Using geometry to analyze the mass distribution of hand-held weapons" by Vincent Le Chevalier. within his paper, with one given balance point of a sword, your able to extrapolate the harmonic nodes of a sword.

Thanks for remembering this one Happy
But what I wrote in the paper is different ; the claim is that center of gravity and centers of oscillation (or what Peter Johnsson calls pivot points) are all tightly linked, not that the center of gravity gives you everything, and certainly not the nodes of vibration.

What's true, however, is that nodes of vibration tend to be associated centers of oscillation. It's not 100% accurate but a good approximation. So when you hit something at the blade node, the shock is not transmitted to the handle node.

A waggle test would probably bring more useful insights on mass distribution, but based on the observation above here is what I gather. It seems that the mass is concentrated quite a way back from the cross, which is not the common case on swords I have observed (but then I don't have any of that sort except the A&A montante trainer). I would expect the sword to not swing very readily, and rather encourage torquing actions on the hilt to set it in rotations. This is not particularly surprising, many Regenyei swords seem to behave like that. People like it because it feels controlled and hits less hard, although for some types at least this is not entirely representative of the period blades, in my opinion.

But really, short of having accurate measurements on a period sharp of these proportions, not much can be said. That's what matters after all, how does it compare to an actual sword...

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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