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A Casalucci





Joined: 14 Dec 2012

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun 17 Nov, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Oakeshott type XIIa sword of konrad of thuringia         Reply with quote

Goodmorning guys,
I've asked my sword manifacturer for a reproduction of this sword, but I need more accurate statistics. The purpose is medieval reenactment, and thus, eventually stage combat (so no cutting edges). I found the total lenght of the sword 116,5 cm (sorry, I use cm and not '' for unit measurement), blade 94 cm, 14 cm grip and blade width at the crossguard 53 mm. Is this correct? then he says a blade this wide with a handle this short would result in a unbalanced and too heavy sword. Maybe We should make the blade width at the crossguard smaller (considering we don't have a cutting edge), maybe like 49 mm? Or there's something else wrong?


The again, how was carried a sword like this? I suppose it's for mounted use, but with a regular scabbard for the knight or attached to the saddle? I have little reference due to the period (middle of XIII century).
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sun 17 Nov, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know anything about this sword, but your numbers don't add up, a 94cm blade with a 14cm grip would be 108cm, while you state the overall length as 116cm, so somewhere you are missing 8cm. If that 8cm is in the grip and pommel, it will make a HUGE difference to ballance and handleing.
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Markus Nußbaumer




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 Feb 2009

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun 17 Nov, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

I had the opportunity to see this sword several times while living in Berlin until a year ago. Just as a personal impression, it did not look ill balanced at all. Just the contrary. But that is my personal impression from seeing this sword, nothing else. I never handled it. But you could always contact the Deutsches Historisches Museum, they were very helpful when I had some questions concerning an artifact in their archives. The Number of the sword is W1838.
Shape is a typical Oakeshott Type XIIa.
The measurements, as given in the Catalogue of the "Burg und Herrschaft" Exhibition in Berlin a few years back:
Length 116.5 cm
Blade Length 94.7 cm
Blade Width 5,3 cm at the guard
Guard length 22,2 cm
Weight 1.35 kg
The blade has the mark of the Passauer bladesmiths.
The museums dating ot the sword is around 1240. It was a river find, if I am correct.
I hope this helps. If you are interested, I could send you some fotos, poor quality museum shots mostly.

Best wishes,

Mark
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Bryan Heff




Location: Philadelphia
Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 358

PostPosted: Sun 17 Nov, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think this the sword that inspired the Del Tin 2135



From Del Tin's website -
MEDIEVAL SWORD, late 13th century. Interpretation of the sword in the Musem of Berlin Markisches
overall length 100 cm, weight 1420 gr.
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Eric Sherwin




Location: Texas
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Sword of Konrad         Reply with quote

Here is a rather poor shot of the sword I took while visiting the museum in 2010. I took it looking towards the tip, to get an idea of the blade profile. Even though it starts out wide at the guard, it quickly tapers in, which wasn't very apparent looking at the sword straight on. Hope this helps.


 Attachment: 80.29 KB
Sword of Konrad.jpg

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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 486

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a really good looking sword. It looks like it would balance pretty well.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Greg Ballantyne




Location: Maryland USA
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
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Posts: 233

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a large pommel, with a bit of a peen block...... 8cm is only a bit more than 3 1/8" - I think the numbers add up fairly well......
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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Posts: 385

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg, that was sort of my point, a 94cm blade with a 7cm grip (which is about what some viking swords seem to have) and a 8cm diameter pommel will be quite blade heavy, the same blade with a 14cm grip and a the same sized pommel will balance very diferently. I have seen measurements for swords that give the length of griping surface as the "grip" and others that include everything that isn't blade, while some include gripping surface and pommel, but not the peen block. Because there doesn't seem to be 1 standard way of measuring, if talking about balance it probably pays to stipulate what is and isn't included in each measurement.
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D. S. Smith




Location: Central CA
Joined: 02 Oct 2011

Posts: 221

PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry, I can't contribute much to the discussion, but I wanted to say that one day I will own a sword with an octagonal pommel. They just strike me as being very powerful and regal from a visual standpoint. I'm really not a fan of older blade styles, like anything older than an XV, but the pommel is great.
Lo, they do call to me.
They bid me take my place among them,
In the halls of Valhalla!
Where the brave may live forever!
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 01 Jul, 2014 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone have a photo of the back side of the pommel with the four rampant lions that Oakeshott mentions in Records?
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Michael Harley




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 12 Apr 2006

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue 01 Jul, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

None of the back, but I do have this of the front.


 Attachment: 172.75 KB
Two-handed Sword ca.1200-1240 (Konrad von Thüringen) 1165mm&947mmB&222mmCG 4 .jpg


Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth - Frank Zappa
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 01 Jul, 2014 11:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael,

That's just fine. Between your photo and the photo on Albion's website for the Count, we have both sides of the pommel:



Is it just me, or does the pommel on this sword seem to be significantly thicker than the one one the Count? As I look at the Count, it looks like it has concave facets, whereas the pommel on Konrad's sword does not. Perhaps this was the origin of my impression.
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