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David P Johnson




Location: Central France
Joined: 25 Oct 2013

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue 29 Oct, 2013 5:04 am    Post subject: Hauberk --Where is it from ?         Reply with quote

I have in my posession a mail shirt inherited from my grandfather.
Of a T -style design with horsemans slits front and back and a second at the top front which overlaps from the middle of the chest to the coller.---The mail is of slightly oval cross section of alternate solid and round riveted rows.
The hight is 113 cm X 117 cm with a 9 cm coller.---The links approx inner diameter 8mm-outer 10mm.
Weight 17 kilos.
In good condition some thinning and loss to the links of the coller and bottom of the legs.
There are examples of a similer link profile/rivets etc in the Novodevichy Convent Museum in Moscow.
Thanks for your opinions.
PS--I seem not to be able to send photos !!!??--please contact me
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Oct, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Please see our photo attachment guide for help.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 803

PostPosted: Tue 29 Oct, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Hauberk --Where is it from ?         Reply with quote

David P Johnson wrote:
I have in my posession a mail shirt inherited from my grandfather.
Of a T -style design with horsemans slits front and back and a second at the top front which overlaps from the middle of the chest to the coller.---The mail is of slightly oval cross section of alternate solid and round riveted rows.
The hight is 113 cm X 117 cm with a 9 cm coller.---The links approx inner diameter 8mm-outer 10mm.
Weight 17 kilos.
In good condition some thinning and loss to the links of the coller and bottom of the legs.
There are examples of a similer link profile/rivets etc in the Novodevichy Convent Museum in Moscow.
Thanks for your opinions.
PS--I seem not to be able to send photos !!!??--please contact me
David the alternating solid and riveted links makes me think that it may be an Indian armor. You can easily post images to an online photo gallery such as Photobucket for free and then you can post a link. Here is an example of Indian mail with alternate solid and riveted links.

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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 803

PostPosted: Wed 30 Oct, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are Davids photos.









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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,235

PostPosted: Wed 30 Oct, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does it look all-riveted to anyone else? It does to me. I don't see anything that are clearly solid rings...
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,199

PostPosted: Wed 30 Oct, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Without context and provenance it is impossible to tell. My first guess would be late Indian or Middle Eastern but that is only because there is more of this mail on the market than any other.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Wed 30 Oct, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi David,

Are you sure about the weight of the hauberk? Considering the thickness of the rings, 17 kilos seems a bit heavy.
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Stanley Hauser





Joined: 17 Sep 2013

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Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed 30 Oct, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm having a bit of trouble determining if I'm looking at the front rivet or the back rivet. I know that Eastern mail tended to have a dome on both sides. On this one I can't tell...some of the rivets look almost flush with the ring.

I've seen Russian mail that opens up at the front. Maybe it is Eastern European?
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Daniel Sullivan




Location: California
Joined: 02 Apr 2004
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 204

PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Haubrek-Where it from?         Reply with quote

David,

Another possible source/location is Sudan. The Higgins has a similar item, although with longer sleeves, possibly from the 1700s. The acquisition number is 526. It has 7mm alternating rings (punched and riveted) with "rivets hardly visible" ....

Will agree with Dan Howard, most of this stuff is impossible to trace. But do hang on to it as clues may pop up in the future.

Dan
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 803

PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Haubrek-Where it from?         Reply with quote

Daniel Sullivan wrote:
David,

Another possible source/location is Sudan. The Higgins has a similar item, although with longer sleeves, possibly from the 1700s. The acquisition number is 526. It has 7mm alternating rings (punched and riveted) with "rivets hardly visible" ....

Will agree with Dan Howard, most of this stuff is impossible to trace. But do hang on to it as clues may pop up in the future.

Dan
While the Sudanese did use all manner of mail I do not think they actually made riveted mail themselves. Here is an interesting article on this very subject from Erik D. Schmid, The Mail Research Society, http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/


The Making of Mail at Omdurman.
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_9.pdf
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Erik D. Schmid




Location: St. Cloud, MN
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 80

PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Judging by the style of riveted links it does not look to have had a European origin. It is more likely as Dan has said, to be either Indian or Middle Eastern. There is a hodgepodge of links in it. It appears to be composed of alternating rows, but the connecting rows are a mixture of riveted and butted. It's no doubt seen a lot of history in its lifetime.
http://www.erikds.com
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 803

PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Erik D. Schmid wrote:
There is a hodgepodge of links in it. It appears to be composed of alternating rows, but the connecting rows are a mixture of riveted and butted.
I asked the owner about the butted links, if there were a lot or if they appeared to be repairs his answer

Quote:
There are very few butted links --probably old repairs
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