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Martinho Ramos




Location: Portugal
Joined: 05 Jan 2011

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Sallet - bevor gap!         Reply with quote

Greetings everyone, i've got a doubt that i'm sure someone else has thought of before. So, my sallet + bevor combination has both the articulated helmet visor and the locking bevor plate that comes down to allow easier breathing and all, but when both of these are closed, if i tilt my head backwards there's that gap in between the two components that pops open. This is an issue when it comes to full contact sparring as there's the risk of some sort of weapon blade getting inside the face protection by skipping in between the sallet visor and the bevor plate, even when they are locked in place. Is there any historical proof that there was some sort of a locking mechanism that prevented this gap to open, apart from the helmet and bevor own locking pins for their articulated components?

I've seen a modern replica of the sallet + bevor combination which have the two pieces attached to each other. They state it is a replica of a sallet made by the German armourer Lorenz Helmschmied, for emperor Maximilian I, which currently sits in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. Could somebody shed some light on this matter, please?

http://www.battlemerchant.com/Helmets/Late-me...:3181.html

Thanks in advance!
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Joshua Koss




Location: Ottawa ON.
Joined: 30 Dec 2009

Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I understand it, that possibility of a gap was considered desirable on the medieval battlefield, at least on italian export sallets with solid bevors (no articulating plate). The idea, I suppose is that your head, when held in a normal position will leave a small gap, and allow you increased vision, or at least air-flow, then when you're at risk of an attack, or engaged directly with an opponent, you can lower your chin and close the gap. You can see an example of this in this famous painting.



I don't really know if the same principle would apply to articulated bevors, but it might? I haven't looked into it as much, really.

The only historical examples I know of for a gap-less sallet/bevor combo would be later closed helms designed to look like sallets, like the one you posted is imitating. This seems like a pretty good option of re-enactment fighting, although if you already have a sallet and bevor, you might consider something as simple as attaching the two together with an internal buckler, or a pin.

PS. there's a great thread on the topic of close helm/sallets over on the armour archive:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=158086
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Arne Koets




Location: Leeds, England
Joined: 20 Nov 2006

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 21 Oct, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the close helms version is also shown in the soloturn fechtbuch which could mean that many depictions of sallets and bevors are actually close helms too... there is just no way to tell
all resistance is futile
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon 21 Oct, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The general feeling amongst more senior armour people (hello Arne!) is exactly that, there may well be more proto-close helms than we now realise.
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Michael Parker




Location: United States
Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Likes: 2 pages

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Posts: 95

PostPosted: Mon 21 Oct, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-c...&pos=2

There's a direct link to the information the Met has on the original sallet attributed to Lorenz Helmschmid. The replica helmet looks to me like a typical style of sallet and bevor for I'd guess 1460-70 that is modified (a little anachronistically) to employ a mechanism similar to the Helmschmid sallet of ca. 1495. I suppose they probably found it easier and cheaper to produce it in the earlier style so it can be sold at a lower price, and the anachronistic construction might be good for somebody with a kit appropriate for 1460-70 or so who wants to have some extra protection at the cost of historical accuracy. At the same time I think it's misleading of them to advertise that it's based on this particular sallet at the Met when it's in a significantly different style and isn't mechanically the same either. I'm glad to have seen this discussion thread because I have to admit that I had some wrong assumptions about how sallets with close-helm construction are supposed to work. The information on the Armour Archive was very helpful. This certainly helped me understand how the Maximilian I style evolved out of the late German Gothic in a way that I hadn't appreciated before.

"This is a sharp medicine, but it is a physician for all diseases and miseries."
-Sir Walter Raleigh, upon being allowed to see the ax that would behead him, 29 October 1618
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Arne Koets




Location: Leeds, England
Joined: 20 Nov 2006

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One other thing that might be a factor is the oppertunity to move the head more independantly.
the gorget lame ont he bevors will stop it moving past the podrin, and as a result you cannot move your head sideways quite as far in an armet or sallet-close-helm as in a seperate sallet,

Equally in riding having the oppertunity to sit well back and dip the head forward without hindrance can make a real difference, so the sallet i find easier to ride in. (it frees my hips)

all resistance is futile
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Tjarand Matre




Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Fri 09 Jan, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are illustrations showing the chin strap of the sallet running under the chin of the bevor. I have used this on my sallet + bevor and it's locked tight as an oyster.
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