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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Mail Gloves         Reply with quote

Depections or mail gloves tailored to individual fingers are fairly prevalent in sculptures and in artwork. Has anyone tried to make or wear gloves (integral to sleeves or otherwise) of only mail links or of lined mail links? How well does this work? is grasping a weapon something of an issue? I would think that the mail would likely be of finer dimensions per ring for gloves, but the sculptures and effigies (admitedly somewhat stylized) do not seem to bear this out.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mail finger gauntlets usually consisted of a regular glove with mail stitched to the back. In order for the fingers to flex properly the weave has to run across the fingers, not along them. Here is a pic of one of the duelling gloves in the MET


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Geoff Wood




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Mail Gloves         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Depections or mail gloves tailored to individual fingers are fairly prevalent in sculptures and in artwork. Has anyone tried to make or wear gloves (integral to sleeves or otherwise) of only mail links or of lined mail links? How well does this work? is grasping a weapon something of an issue? I would think that the mail would likely be of finer dimensions per ring for gloves, but the sculptures and effigies (admitedly somewhat stylized) do not seem to bear this out.


Modern gloves for use by butchers are mail on both front (palm) and back, which doesn't seem to interfere in their use of cutting tools. Of course, the mail used is probably of much finer form (smaller rings, thinner wire etc.) than any used historically, so it may not be a fair representation, as you say, of the mail used back then.
Geoff
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The samurai used mail lined gloves (kusari yugake), with the mail exposed and also with the mail hidden by a layer of cloth.


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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen the dueling glove above, but I was wondering if there were any attempts to recreate the seemingly (likely lined) full mail cover gloves like these:

Just a few examples



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"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai,
None of those images illustrates the palm of the hand. I'm with Dan on this, mail is stitched onto a fabric glove which can be replaced. It may well be fine enough to extend 3/4 of the circumference of each digit but mail in the palm and fingers would make for poor contact between hand and weapon.

I own a modern butcher mail glove for certain types of leather work where the risk of blade slippage is high. No way I'd handle the knife with a mail glove on the gripping hand. It goes on the hand exposed to blade movement.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
I've seen the dueling glove above, but I was wondering if there were any attempts to recreate the seemingly (likely lined) full mail cover gloves like these:

Just a few examples
Kai, are there any existing examples, although the images look like the gloves are completely mail it could be just artistic license.

Here is a mitten that is fully made from mail, it looks old at least not newlymade but I have no idea what its original purpose was.


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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, as you remember, the bazubands in my Yushman Project were fitted with maille gloves. The construction is maille rings, stitched on a leather glove in one-directional pattern, not alternative as shown by Dan.





Although I hadn't seen the MET gloves before (Mr. Dan Howard sent me the same picture after they'd been finished), I find mine enough battle-worthy.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mail gloves are different than mittens, as rings between the fingers would likely interfere with movement. Current butcher's gloves are not a good comparison, as they are smooth welded rather than riveted, or alternating riveted and solids. The rings are also smaller than the historic average, though some historic mail can be found that small.

There is a mail mitten recovered from the Battlefield of Wisby where the palm is covered in leather, though there is some question of whether the thumb is enclosed in mail or had a leather grip, as the thumb is folded over on itself and corroded. The effigies which show the muffler pulled back from the hand often show the mail on the inside of the mitten, so it might not always have been sewn to a lining. There are a number of examples in art showing mittens with slit or open palms, and other examples showing the palm covered in mail. I tend to believe the art isn't always reliable on such details, but there's also more than one way to skin a cat, as the idiom goes.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui


Last edited by Mart Shearer on Wed 16 Oct, 2013 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
There are a number of examples in art showing mittens with slit or open palms, and other examples showing the palm covered in mail. I tend to believe the art isn't always reliable on such details, but there's also more than one to skin a cat, as the idiom goes.

I'm inclined to think that these integrated mittens may have been completely open at the palm so the bare skin makes contact with the sword grip.

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris Bedrosov wrote:
Well, as you remember, the bazubands in my Yushman Project were fitted with maille gloves. The construction is maille rings, stitched on a leather glove in one-directional pattern, not alternative as shown by Dan.





Although I hadn't seen the MET gloves before (Mr. Dan Howard sent me the same picture after they'd been finished), I find mine enough battle-worthy.
Boris, while nice looking, the bazu bands you picture are not authentic a far as I know, the hand coverings attached to Indo-Persian bazu bands are like a clam shell with the hand in full contact with the sword, I have never seen a bazu band with a mail glove attached, I have seen one with what looks like an articulated glove. I have not seen everything there is to see, so if you have an image that shows a bazu band with an attached mail covered glove I would like to see it.



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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am familiar with the images and repos that show an open palm or a slit palm, and I've always suspected that the palm was usually left open (like Dan suggests) to better grip the weapon in hand (skin on grip contact). I'm just curious if the depictions of mail on the inside of the fingers (as can be seen on effigies and in at least a few of the pictures I posted) would have existed. Additionally, while it is likely license, there is also never any depiction that I've found (which isn't saying a whole lot) of the mail links shrinking or changing direction.

It would seem to just be a convention of the depiction then.

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--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Of course, we also have Upton-Ward's translation of the French Rule of the Knights Templar:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cBqgOXfMxAoC...mp;f=false
Quote:
325. No brother should ever swear when angry or calm, nor should he ever
say an ugly or vile word, even less do such a thing. Each brother is required to do
all noble actions and say all good words. No brother should wear leather gloves,
except the chaplain brothers who are permitted to wear them in honour of Our
Lord's body, which they often hold in their hands; and the mason brothers may
wear them sometimes, and it is permitted them because of the great suffering
they endure and so that they do not easily injure their hands; but they should
not wear them when they are not working.
Each brother should put on arming gauntlets when he has put on his arming
jacket in order to arm himself, but otherwise he should not wear them without
permission.


I'm not sure of the original language, but it appears a separate arming glove from the aketon, which could be removed independently, is called for.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

#Eric

I know several bazubands with maille gauntlets.
The first one is Persian and is now kept at Askeri Museum in Istanbul, Turkey









And the other is of unknown origin, although I personally think it's Persian again (see the file attached). Please, note that I am NOT the author of this picture. If I understand its title correctly, it's courtesy to well-respected Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani.

And there are another at least a couple of bazubands on a display in The Stibbert Museum in Florence, Italy (both on the mounted Ottoman warriors), which are quite obviously fitted with maille gloves.
Most of these bazubands are fitted with mittens, but one (in the Stibbert Museum) features fingered gloves.



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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris Bedrosov wrote:
#Eric

I know several bazubands with maille gauntlets.
The first one is Persian and is now kept at Askeri Museum in Istanbul, Turkey

And the other is of unknown origin, although I personally think it's Persian again (see the file attached). Please, note that I am NOT the author of this picture. If I understand its title correctly, it's courtesy to well-respected Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani.

And there are another at least a couple of bazubands on a display in The Stibbert Museum in Florence, Italy (both on the mounted Ottoman warriors), which are quite obviously fitted with maille gloves.
Most of these bazubands are fitted with mittens, but one (in the Stibbert Museum) features fingered gloves.


Boris, the bazu bands you mention are a clam shell type of hand protection, it wraps around the hand, it is not a gauntlet as most people would describe a gauntlet. In the Indo-Persian bazu band whether the hand protection is cloth or mail the bare hand is able to grasp a weapon, with a glove or gauntlet that would not be the case. What appears at first to be a gauntlet is in actuality a clam shell that simply wraps around the hand. The only bazu band I have ever seen with what could be truly called a glove that encases the fingers is the articulated Indian bazu band that I posted an image of, if you or anyone else has an image of a bazu band with a mail glove that actually is a full glove I would appreciate seeing it.

I have many images of bazu band with intact hand coverings and I have not seen one that is an actual mail glove or gauntlet were the hand is fully encased. I have many images from the Stibbert collection as well.

From the Islamic room at the Stibbert.







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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Boris Bedrosov wrote:
#Eric

I know several bazubands with maille gauntlets.
The first one is Persian and is now kept at Askeri Museum in Istanbul, Turkey

And the other is of unknown origin, although I personally think it's Persian again (see the file attached). Please, note that I am NOT the author of this picture. If I understand its title correctly, it's courtesy to well-respected Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani.

And there are another at least a couple of bazubands on a display in The Stibbert Museum in Florence, Italy (both on the mounted Ottoman warriors), which are quite obviously fitted with maille gloves.
Most of these bazubands are fitted with mittens, but one (in the Stibbert Museum) features fingered gloves.


Boris, the bazu bands you mention are a clam shell type of hand protection, it wraps around the hand, more like a mitten as you say. In the Indo-Persian bazu band whether the hand protection is cloth or mail the bare hand is able to grasp a weapon. What appears at first to be a true gauntlet is in actuality a clam shell that simply wraps around the hand. The only bazu band I have ever seen with what could be truly called a glove that encases the fingers is the articulated Indian bazu band that I posted an image of, if you or anyone else has an image of a bazu band with a mail glove that actually is a full glove I would appreciate seeing it.

I have many images of bazu band with intact hand coverings and I have not seen one that is an actual mail glove were the hand is fully encased. I have many images from the Stibbert collection as well. I have yet to see a mail glove attached to a bazu band, not that I would not like to see one.

From the Islamic room at the Stibbert.







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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm, that's it, Eric.

I have to agree I was wrong and I make this honestly - these are really clam-shells. Damned - they look exactly as gloves at first sight.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Where did this come from? I'm thinking that I'd like to try and make a copy.


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Eric S




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Where did this come from? I'm thinking that I'd like to try and make a copy.

Dan the original image came from here. http://xxx.xxx/2009/10/26/page,3,indo...spexi.html
You can find an edited version here. http://www.pinterest.com/samuraiantiques/indo-persian-armor/
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris Bedrosov wrote:
Hmmm, that's it, Eric.

I have to agree I was wrong and I make this honestly - these are really clam-shells. Damned - they look exactly as gloves at first sight.
Boris I agree, that is why I took the Stibbert image and edited the three individual armors in order to see the details better. It would make sense that someone would have used a mail glove or gauntlet on a bazu band but I have only found clam shell and articulated examples so far.

The Japanese also seemed to prefer an open hand, while they did use full gloves the majority of their gauntlet type armor had the hand exposed, their arm defense was more like an armored sleeve.

Here is another articulated Ottoman example but you still can not tell if the hand is bare or if this is a true gauntlet.


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