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Björn Kronisch





Joined: 07 Jan 2007

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct, 2013 12:44 am    Post subject: Helmet and gauntlets for sparring with nylon wasters?         Reply with quote

Hey folks,

I'm currently looking for a helmet and gauntlets to use for sparring with synthetic swords, specifically the Rawlings wasters. I was thinking about a fencing mask first but now I'm kind of leaning towards a steel helmet. I'm toying with the idea of riveting a steel mesh to the inside of a barbute and use that. Or maybe a sallet with bevor, which would probably not need any modification. Any thoughts on that?

Generally I would like something that not only offers good protection but also looks fairly nice, so that I could use it as a costume piece as well. And it would be good to have something that could stand up to steel sparring as well, in case I decide to go for that in the future.

Same with the gauntlets. I'm not really interested in leather based gauntlets like the Absolute Force sparring gloves. Steel or plastic gauntlets would be more to my liking. I'm just not sure which ones interfere the least with different grip techniques. Recommendations?

I'm on a budget, so the helmet should not cost more than the $200, the gauntlets ideally not more than $150.

Thanks in advance!
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Philip Melhop




Location: Wokingham, Berkshire, UK
Joined: 24 May 2008

Posts: 129

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct, 2013 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bjorn,
the degree of protection you reqire depends on what type of sword simulator you intend to use. The group I train with, English Martial Arts Academy, uses the basket hilted single handed sword. For almost all training, sparring etc a fencing mask and decent leather gloves are sufficient. Personally, I add escrima type forearm guards and a heavily padded riot glove if not using a buckler. That said, I had my pinky broken a few months ago through a decent glove, so accidents can happen. We all have a few bruises to show but nothing else.
If you want to train in longsword I would suggest you have a look at the Schola Gladiatoria site that follows http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/equipment/ for some suggestions
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Guy Bayes




Location: United States
Joined: 07 Oct 2012

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Absolute Force stuff is good

http://www.afinternationalsporting.com/produc...65/cPath/8

Of you want to DIY for the helm you might look at ThatGuy's design. He is not accosting orders anymore but could give you some ideas

http://www.thatguysproducts.com/masks.html
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Tom King




Location: florida
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...let+Helmet

^should be good for rawlings right out of the box. these things seat pretty low on the head too, past the chin, but you will need a gorget, coif, or bevor is you're really anal about safety.

As for gauntlets... they're expensive. for anything worth writing home about. Most gauntlets in the $100-$250 range are SCAisms.

some cheap offerings include
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/medieval-fun...ets-gloves
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/medieval-combat-gauntlets-gloves
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/fighting-wes...-gauntlets
http://www.etsy.com/listing/160673025/sca-adr...7AodiX0AqA
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 945

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, wear a cup. Accidents will happen. Eek!
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Björn Kronisch





Joined: 07 Jan 2007

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I am definitely thinking about a sallet and bevor, that should take care of all protective needs. I'm just a bit worried about limited vision in one of those. How bad is it?

I really like those mitten-style gauntlets on Armstreet (http://armstreet.com/store/armor/medieval-functional-combat-gauntlets-gloves). The price is higher than what I had hoped for, but it sure would be nice to get a pair made to my hand measurements. Does anyone have experience with those, in terms of comfort and dexterity?

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Also, wear a cup. Accidents will happen. Eek!


I know. >_<
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Tom King




Location: florida
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

sallet visibility is actually pretty good; you won't be able to see your feet without moving you head, but you'll be able to see your opponent fine. When fighting, you'll probably find that you don't notice the inside of the helmet or limited vision. It's weird, but you kind of look beyond the helmet subconsciously.

The 18ga stainless Armstreet gauntlets are pretty nice actually; a fellow member of my reenactment group has a set and they provide excellent wrist mobility and are relatively low weight.
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Björn,

a sallet is not appropriate for historical fencing training. The point of the sword can (and will) penetrate the visor. Historical visors are about 7 mm wide, enaught to slit a blade through. Many modern replicas have visors up to 1,5 cm wide.They are even worse. Best protection offers a modern fencing mask with an added protection for the back of the head, combined with a metal gorget (like Alan Senefelder used to make them). A bevor is too restricting for longsword fencing (there is a difference in style between fencing and fencing in armor).

Getting a point into the eye socket can be fatal. Losing eyesight and/or having severe brain damages are reported.

Best of luck,
Thomas

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Björn Kronisch





Joined: 07 Jan 2007

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 2:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with you Thomas, a sallet would be too risky to use with steel swords. However, I would assume that nylon wasters are too thick to pass through the eye slit. Or maybe I'm wrong?

Right now I'm leaning towards purchasing a barbute and riveting steel mesh to the inside to cover the opening. Any suggestions on what gauge the wire should be for that purpose?
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Björn,

take a look at this: http://www.derwesten.de/staedte/bochum/schwer...82416.html

This accident happend in Germany: the nylon waster got caught in the eye slit and got stuck in the eye socket... The eye is as vulnerable to plastic as to steel. And given enaught force, a nylon waster can be pressed through an otherwise too narrow eye slit. I would not take the risk.

Regards,
Thomas

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Björn Kronisch





Joined: 07 Jan 2007

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, that's severe... I had not heard of such a tragic accident with synthetic swords before.

Definitely makes me want to go for the steel mesh modification for added safety.
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Tom King




Location: florida
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote


not "all" sallets have wide eye slits, in fact most don't. The ones that do may let a sword tip through, but it's exceedingly rare, even more so when sparring with people with self control.

In BOTN we still see kettlehat-bevor combos floating around, and none of the fighters the worse for wear because of it (to my knowledge).
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Kristian Guivarra




Location: Australia
Joined: 07 Aug 2013

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you get more wrist movement with an hourglass glove or a later style plate gauntlet??
ta
K
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 493

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom King wrote:

not "all" sallets have wide eye slits, in fact most don't. The ones that do may let a sword tip through, but it's exceedingly rare, even more so when sparring with people with self control.

In BOTN we still see kettlehat-bevor combos floating around, and none of the fighters the worse for wear because of it (to my knowledge).

I honestly don't get why someone would make a that is one continuous slit, it's not like your eyes are that way. That nose
blocks the direct point blank middle and your eyes are used to seeing beyond that. From my expert wearing helmets, I nasal doesn't block necessary sight at all
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Philip Melhop




Location: Wokingham, Berkshire, UK
Joined: 24 May 2008

Posts: 129

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not sure why the OP is obsessed with the need for steel protection for using the Knightshop/Rawlings wasters. There is good advice in this thread from myself and one or two others who have actually trained and sparred in the "nylon" environment. So to reiterate
For single handed swords, all styles,- a decent fencing mask, 350 N is plenty for nylons
- proper well fitting gloves, long cuffs if possible, tactical gloves, M/C gloves will all work
- forearm protection, standard escrima guards work well,
- Groin protection, worth spending a bit on this,
-Chest protectors for women(available for men too), lower leg guards(brushcutter guards) pretty much round it out.
A decent fencing jacket is nice but many only wear T-shirts
I did initially use an ice hockey throat guard seldom use it now.

It the OP wants to play longsword then add some heavier duty gloves a better fencing mask and definitely wear a good fencing jacket; either a coaching jacket or a HEMA specific design. Some back -of-head protection is good too as those longswords really do leave a mark.

As stated above, steel armour is not needed or even useful for nylon work, the blades get damaged which can lead to them breaking. We don't even use steel bucklers much anymore.
IF the OP is going to transition to steel blades then that is a whole other issue, to be approached on its own terms.
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Marik C.S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Feb 2010

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wouldn't use anything but a high quality, 1600N tested mask and have both seen and felt even those warping and denting - though more commonly with singlehanded weapons with someone using the full force of their arm&shoulder to strike and a misjudged dodge on the receiving end of the blow.

Longsword fighting has less impact on the mask - though it certainly can be just as devastating - as it is easier to keep control of the blade even at high speeds and with a lot of force.

Europe - Where the History comes from. - Eddie Izzard
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Björn Kronisch





Joined: 07 Jan 2007

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Philip Melhop wrote:
Not sure why the OP is obsessed with the need for steel protection for using the Knightshop/Rawlings wasters.


Not sure why you call a mere interest in particular gear "obsessed", but whatever. The point is that since I'm on a budget I would like something that can serve as many different purposes as possible. So I'm looking at steel helmets because they could be used for both nylon and steel swords, and they would also be useful for reenactment, SCA, costumes and Youtube videos for instance.
Multi-functional, if you will.
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Tom King




Location: florida
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The truth of the matter is that the rawling synthetics are a step above fighting with fiberglass core nerf swords.You could do it in 3M safety goggle, or completely unprotected without even getting bruised. The hits will sting, but thats about it.

That being said, 3 weapons mask worth owning will cost at least $90 and mechanics style gloves cost around $30 (not to mention the cost of a gambeson and ABS armor components), so spending 130 on a steel helmet and 150 on gantlets and having the basis for a man at arms kit is not a bad deal. Considering the ahistorical alternative will run 1/2 to 3/4 of the cost.


Last edited by Tom King on Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Björn Kronisch





Joined: 07 Jan 2007

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, there are reports of people who got broken fingers from synthetic wasters, even while wearing leather gauntlets.
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Tom King




Location: florida
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Björn Kronisch wrote:
Well, there are reports of people who got broken fingers from synthetic wasters, even while wearing leather gauntlets.


somewhere on twitter wrote:
my little brother just broke my finger with a nerf sword #fml



Just don't block with your hands. I've gotten some pretty good bruises to the fingers with feders, yet none have broken yet. If they don't break from getting hit by a 3mm thick bar of steel, I highly doubt closed cell foam around a fiberglass core would do the job.
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