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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct, 2013 6:10 am    Post subject: Helmet Liners- Great examples from the 1400's         Reply with quote

I found these images of helmet liners made for Siegmund von Erzherzog http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegmund_(%C3%96sterreich-Tirol), Insbruck 1484, in the Kunsthistorische Museum, Vienna.
They look excellent and I haven't seen such amazing examples before:


Is anyone making liners like this?

The museum looks to have an amazing arms and armour collection:
http://www.khm.at/en/visit/collections/collec...nd-armour/
Hope you enjoy it.
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Henrik Granlid




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Apr 2012

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I... I just don't...

Wow.

I logged on to write a post asking if anybody had sources on how Burgonets and Sallets were lined historically... Half the question answered right there! Those sure look good!
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are very specific liners purely for gestech helms. Although they show period materials and techniues their style is pretty precise and not something I'd use for sallets, bascinets and burgonets etc. If you wanted something for your frog mouthed jousting helm though they work brilliantly. They do take some studying to make sure you have all the different straps and laces functioning properly though.
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark has it right. They have all kinds of straps and leather reinforcing bands that a burgonet or sallet liner wouldn't have.

Burgonet and sallet skulls would be lined with a stuffed and quilted fabric liner made of 4 triangles which converged toward the apex of skull, where they would be held together with an adjustable leather thong. The fabric would be affixed by stitching it to a leather band permanently riveted into the the helmet. In some helmets, the lining would often extend out of the skull to cover all of the interior surfaces of the helmet.

This is a picture a quick search turned up. There are plenty more informative pictures out there, though!


-Hildebrandt

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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm,
I wonder...
Do we know for sure that they were not used for any other purpose than gestech helms?

They seem a pretty sensible construction for under mail. I seem to recall some effigies with a coif laced to padding that seemed to be more than just an arming cap and looked quite like these.

There seems to be more throat protection on the pictured liners above than needed on a gestech helm.

What do you think?
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Steven Janus




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 12 Mar 2008

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sure looks a lot prettier than blue camping foam or a cut up kungfu helmet, which is what I see most re-enactors, such as myself. I wonder if cloth padding is enough really. Kind of like an arming jacket around your head. Camping foam absorbs well but it didn't exist back then.
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Granlid wrote:
I... I just don't...

Wow.

I logged on to write a post asking if anybody had sources on how Burgonets and Sallets were lined historically... Half the question answered right there! Those sure look good!

I saw that Steel Mastery have these:
http://steel-mastery.com/en/padded-armour/padded-liners-and-caps
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think we have to consider not only the padding effect of those joust linings, but also the suspension element. Those things were laced through the bowl of the helmet to keep the liner centered and stable. The makers clearly understood the value of having the head sort-of floating inside the helmet. That system would not only protect the head from blunt trauma, but might also help prevent deceleration injury to the brain. The much thinner lining and simpler installation of field helmets wouldn't do anything to prevent your brain smashing against the inside of your skull. That extremely padded lining and leather thongs (which are somewhat elastic) might allow the head and its contents to slow slightly less dramatically on impact. The thick, close-fitting extension down the neck might also help prevent the head from snapping forward/backward, which can be instantly fatal (thus, the harness on the back of some auto-racing helmets).
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blue closed-cell foam is crap when it comes to helm padding. It is far too stiff under impact, and thus transmits too much shock. The only thing worse is the styrofoam that forms the body of most bicycle helmets. The cloth liners that were used back in the day (and still are by those of us smart enough to use them) do MUCH better. Those of us who have used them in an SCA context have found that we have to count much 'lighter' than those with foam, especially with blows coming straight down on our helms (this assumes the four to six panel construction mentioned above), which can be very hard to feel.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Given what we're learning about repeated head trauma and degenerative brain disease, it would be very interesting to try and relate historical jousting prowess with later-life reports of "madness," violence, temper, poor judgement, etc. It now looks like the brains of ALL NFL players are effected by concussion, so it really wouldn't require decades of jousting to cause debilitating damage that, today, can appear by a former player's mid-50s.

I'm looking at you Henry VIII.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speak of the devil...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-bri...70421.html

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Harry Marinakis




PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't imagine trying to fight in a helmet liner like that in the humid summers of the mid-Atlantic region...
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