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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sun 22 Sep, 2013 4:49 am    Post subject: Early 15th century german hourglass "demi-mitten"         Reply with quote

Hello my friends!

After both of my old hardened steel gauntlets have been destroyed at last weekends HMB-tournament in Montbazon, I am now in the progress to get new ones.

As my harness is going to evolve in a very typical german harness around 1410, I decided to get those very nice demi-mittens you see in the art of the time, which resemble the gauntlets from the Churburg S 18 armour.

Here some effigies to show what I mean:

1. Johann von Wertheim, 1407, Wertheim, Baden-Württemberg
www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi09071c18a.jpg

2. Kunz von Haberkorn, 1421, Würzburg (now in Munich), Bayern
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi02308g13a.jpg

3. Friedrich von Sachsenhausen, 1411, Koblenz, Rheinland-Pfalz
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/8592...2432104851

My and my armour maker's problem in the moment is the construction of the finger protection.
There are several possible solutions we have evidence of:

1. Mail fingers:

1.a Konrad IV. von Kirchberg, 1417, Ulm, Baden-Württemberg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi03192b06a.jpg

1.b Soldiers at the Holy Sepulchre, Frankfurt am Main, Hessen:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/8988...432104851/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/8988...2432104851


2. Composite construction of scales rivrivetedder leather:

2.a Churburg S 18 Gauntlets:
https://plus.google.com/photos/115962623729091930300/albums/5433752780145165409/5433759245126095314?banner=pwa&pid=5433759245126095314&oid=115962623729091930300

2.b Dammo Knebel von Katzenelnbogen, +1401, Oppenheim, Rheinland-Pfalz
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/8621.../lightbox/


3. Scale construction:

3.a A Painting from Arnstadt, Thüringen, 1430
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2138...3145061815

3.b Friedrich von Sachsenhausen, 1411, Koblenz, Rheinland-Pfalz
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/8592.../lightbox/


4. Four-part plate construction with one joint cap:

4.a Painting in Neustift im Stubaital, 1404, Sudtirolo, Italy
http://armourinart.com/111/149/

4.b Fresco from Ptujska Gora, 1420, Slowenia
http://armourinart.com/138/199/

4.c Fresco from Stams, 1426, Austria:
http://armourinart.com/139/201/


As I need those gauntlets to participate in a very hard full contact sport, where the hands are legitimate targets, I really need good protection. So I would definitely not use the historically popular mail-finger solution! I also have not enough trust in the two scale construction methods.
This leaves me with the articulated plates solution. But I need more and more clear images of more gauntlets of that time and preferably from Germany. Maybe you also have pictures of different articulation methods with plate?
I hope you can provide me with more of that images and maybe some insights into your experience with the different solutions for fingerprotection under heavy duty, especially the compcompositestruction, I wonder how well that works, too!

Thanks in advance,

Till
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Killian Meehan




Location: Ireland
Joined: 27 Oct 2013

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu 22 May, 2014 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Till,

Firstly; apologies for the thread necromancy.
However, nice research! I've been looking at something similar myself. I'm sure you already purchased some gauntlets, but in case you haven't, there are a few English examples of effigies with hourglass gauntlets having extended knuckle plates which partially cover the fingers;

http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/4300/4347/armor_1.htm Sir John de St. Quintin, 1397
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1572/1603/ South Kelsey Knight, 1410

Hopefully these are useful to you, though I'm aware that you are looking for something from Germany.
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jun, 2014 4:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Killian,

thank you so much for coming back here to share the information. Thread-necromancy is never the issue, especially if interesting information is shared!
And it is very interesting to see this type of gauntlet in England, these are the first specimens I am made aware of. The gauntlets of John St. Quintin show a four part finger construction and the other effigy of South Kelsy probably shows a five part finger constrction.
I have discussed this topic with my armourer intensively and descided to have a pair made after the effigy of Albert von Kirchberg (Thuringia, Germany, ca. 1410):
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesa..._r5414.jpg

I was after very good hand protection and as you see, the elongated plate reaches nearly the fingertips.

I am still looking for more insights about the different stiles of finger construction. I was recently made aware of another style of finger construction with only three parts:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Vv7uCudJLaY/TKd8FITCalI/AAAAAAAABMU/wIV9r2Kw6Og/w640-h480-no/Zdj.2529.jpg

I cannot find a clear evidence for this construction method in the late 14th/early 15th century, though. I guess it emerges in the later 15th century.
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