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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Wed 28 Aug, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Matador sword in music video         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNYjOVo5IEw
I was looking at the above video and paid attention to the sword that the matador is holding.
Its clearly visible at various parts of the clip and is quite interesting.

The hilt is very short with a large pommel and also a very functional triangular? cross-section blade.

I suppose that the hilt is short as a bull is a charging opponent and provides all the momentum for the killing lunge.

The large round pommel would sit in the base of the palm and any impact is transferred directly down the matador's fully extended arm- no wrist power crucial to keeping the blade aligned.

Does anyone have an example of a matador's sword that they care to show?
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An image search for matador swords will yield a bucket full of results. I have never owned one but they are generally not too expensive to pick up from a dealer or Ebay. It is one of the types of swords that may be getting sold as tourist items but not as common as the typical Colada or Tizona swords. I'm just saying, there has been a reproduction/display market for them for many,many decades.

The design of the hilt is specifically to thrust, as you note but there is not a lot of impact. The matador is not facing a charging bull with the sword. Rather, the coup de grace is delivered once the bull has become entirely weakened and winded.

There is little redeeming value in the music video you shared and it shows virtually nothing about a bull fight. I would be amongst the last to argue morals regarding bull fighting but will say there is a heritage there and if really interested about the process and amount of time involved in the display, you need to look further than a video a few minutes long.

Cheers

GC
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
An image search for matador swords will yield a bucket full of results. I have never owned one but they are generally not too expensive to pick up from a dealer or Ebay. It is one of the types of swords that may be getting sold as tourist items but not as common as the typical Colada or Tizona swords. I'm just saying, there has been a reproduction/display market for them for many,many decades.

The design of the hilt is specifically to thrust, as you note but there is not a lot of impact. The matador is not facing a charging bull with the sword. Rather, the coup de grace is delivered once the bull has become entirely weakened and winded.

There is little redeeming value in the music video you shared and it shows virtually nothing about a bull fight. I would be amongst the last to argue morals regarding bull fighting but will say there is a heritage there and if really interested about the process and amount of time involved in the display, you need to look further than a video a few minutes long.

Cheers

GC

Haha!
Thanks for responding. Yes, I had searched for images online and done some other research. The original stimulus for this research for me was this video. I hadn't realised that there were bullfight specific swords.
I was hoping to get a bit of a conversation happening rather than just conduct research.
The style of sword is called an estoque or estoc (presumably the same root word as the English tuck).
The hilt construction made George Silver's Mountanta technique make more sense to me:
Quote:
Mountanta: is to carry your rapier pommel in the palm of your hand resting it on your little finger with your hand below & so mounting it up a loft, & so to come in with a thrust upon your enemy's face or breast, as of out of the Imbrocata.

I'm not interested in bullfighting, myself. But I am curious about a long-surviving sword discipline in the Western World.

As to their being"little redeeming value in the music video you shared", well, I thought it was loaded with meaning and metaphor. There's something funny about the tone of your reply. I'm not sure if its because of a low post count or some other reason.
Sorry if starting this thread has bothered you.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not interested in bullfighting, myself. But I am curious about a long-surviving sword discipline in the Western World.


Perhaps that is why you perceive my response as a slight instead of having any real interest in the use of a matador's sword. Your counter now, indeed, underlines the the lack of redeeming value of the video in regard to swordsmanship at all. Your post count had nothing to do with my response and perhaps if you had offered more of the purpose for your inquiry in the first place, you might have garnered more response.

Hey, at least I replied at all right? Happy

Cheers

GC
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for explaining your position. I don't really understand what you're getting at, though.
Would you mind elaborating?
Are the deficiencies in my original post, the video I linked or both?
I never claimed that the video was about sword use at all. You stated that the video has little redeeming value.
Maybe I have misunderstood the purpose of this forum. I had taken it to be a discussion forum rather than strictly research oriented.
Please put me straight if I've erred.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are having a hard time understanding my first reply, perhaps the following will help explain it.

You asked about matador swords.
Quote:
I never claimed that the video was about sword use at all.

Sure, but you did then offer what the use of a matador's sword entailed.
Quote:
I suppose that the hilt is short as a bull is a charging opponent and provides all the momentum for the killing lunge.

The large round pommel would sit in the base of the palm and any impact is transferred directly down the matador's fully extended arm- no wrist power crucial to keeping the blade aligned.

Your understanding of its use (albeit you then indicated in reply that you have no interest in learning about bull fighting) is to counter a charging bull. I pointed out that this is not the case in use. The last paragraph of my first response specifically regards the lack of redeeming value in sharing the video in the context of your understanding of how a matador's sword is used, or of bull fighting.

You are specifically talking about bull fighting in your first post and sharing nothing about your knowledge or even interest of other such swords in history.

It is moot as an attack towards you in any fashion, simply pointing out the uselessness of the video in the context of matadors swords and bull fighting.

Cheers

GC
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M. Adair Orr





Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 70

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, one has to be so careful on these forums so as not to be misunderstood.

When I read the post I simply thought the following: Mr. Boyd was watching a video by a rather cool band and saw this sword design and it struck him as peculiar. He felt it was a novel and distinct survival of sword use in a contemporary practice so he posted it here as a topic of discussion, this being a discussion forum on the subject of historic arms.

The post has interest to me. I can't add to the discussion, but I don't expect that Mr. Boyd had to thoroughly research the topic prior to posting either. I'm curious to know what knowledge others may have about the evolution of this type of bull stabber.

(Off topic: Excellent band!)

-Adair
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To be honest, I had the volume muted because I was looking for sword content in the context of a matador's sword..

Cheers

GC
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
If you are having a hard time understanding my first reply, perhaps the following will help explain it.

You asked about matador swords.
Quote:
I never claimed that the video was about sword use at all.

Sure, but you did then offer what the use of a matador's sword entailed.
Quote:
I suppose that the hilt is short as a bull is a charging opponent and provides all the momentum for the killing lunge.

The large round pommel would sit in the base of the palm and any impact is transferred directly down the matador's fully extended arm- no wrist power crucial to keeping the blade aligned.

Your understanding of its use (albeit you then indicated in reply that you have no interest in learning about bull fighting) is to counter a charging bull. I pointed out that this is not the case in use. The last paragraph of my first response specifically regards the lack of redeeming value in sharing the video in the context of your understanding of how a matador's sword is used, or of bull fighting.

You are specifically talking about bull fighting in your first post and sharing nothing about your knowledge or even interest of other such swords in history.

It is moot as an attack towards you in any fashion, simply pointing out the uselessness of the video in the context of matadors swords and bull fighting.

Cheers

GC

You know, when someone has an interest historical arms and armour and they find a site where other people have a similar interest they might like to have a chat about this interest. They may not have any particular theory or strongly held opinion that they want to present for correction by others. They may just want to discuss and learn from other on the forum.
It can be difficult to gauge the culture of a particular forum before one starts speaking. If what I posted originally was as seriously flawed as you seem to be suggesting I have some serious communication problems and I apologise.
However, I feel that you are deliberately misunderstanding me and fault-finding rather than entering into the spirit of discussion and inclusion.
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Adair Orr wrote:
Wow, one has to be so careful on these forums so as not to be misunderstood.

When I read the post I simply thought the following: Mr. Boyd was watching a video by a rather cool band and saw this sword design and it struck him as peculiar. He felt it was a novel and distinct survival of sword use in a contemporary practice so he posted it here as a topic of discussion, this being a discussion forum on the subject of historic arms.

The post has interest to me. I can't add to the discussion, but I don't expect that Mr. Boyd had to thoroughly research the topic prior to posting either. I'm curious to know what knowledge others may have about the evolution of this type of bull stabber.

(Off topic: Excellent band!)

-Adair

Thank you, Adair. I appreciate your response.

Matthew
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M Boyd wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
If you are having a hard time understanding my first reply, perhaps the following will help explain it.

You asked about matador swords.
Quote:
I never claimed that the video was about sword use at all.

Sure, but you did then offer what the use of a matador's sword entailed.
Quote:
I suppose that the hilt is short as a bull is a charging opponent and provides all the momentum for the killing lunge.

The large round pommel would sit in the base of the palm and any impact is transferred directly down the matador's fully extended arm- no wrist power crucial to keeping the blade aligned.

Your understanding of its use (albeit you then indicated in reply that you have no interest in learning about bull fighting) is to counter a charging bull. I pointed out that this is not the case in use. The last paragraph of my first response specifically regards the lack of redeeming value in sharing the video in the context of your understanding of how a matador's sword is used, or of bull fighting.

You are specifically talking about bull fighting in your first post and sharing nothing about your knowledge or even interest of other such swords in history.

It is moot as an attack towards you in any fashion, simply pointing out the uselessness of the video in the context of matadors swords and bull fighting.

Cheers

GC

You know, when someone has an interest historical arms and armour and they find a site where other people have a similar interest they might like to have a chat about this interest. They may not have any particular theory or strongly held opinion that they want to present for correction by others. They may just want to discuss and learn from other on the forum.
It can be difficult to gauge the culture of a particular forum before one starts speaking. If what I posted originally was as seriously flawed as you seem to be suggesting I have some serious communication problems and I apologise.
However, I feel that you are deliberately misunderstanding me and fault-finding rather than entering into the spirit of discussion and inclusion.


Again

I have not written that your post was flawed (yet you could have better elaborated your outline for discussion).

I simply responded in regard to what I know of matadors swords and what you had indicated as to how they are used. You then ask for elaboration of my post and now take umbrage of a pretty open and simple statement and explanation of response.. Make of it what you might.

Cheers

GC
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:


I simply responded in regard to what I know of matadors swords and what you had indicated as to how they are used. You then ask for elaboration of my post and now take umbrage of a pretty open and simple statement and explanation of response.. Make of it what you might.

Cheers

GC


What?!!
How dare you!? I haven't taken umbrage for at least a fortnight.
Nor am I disgruntled. I'm completely gruntled.
But, I've been slow on the uptake. I recognise you now from your discussion techniques. I'm sure we've met before.

Can we start this discussion again?

It'd go something like this:

Hi, I'm new here (but I have been lurking for a few years) and I've been interested in historical arms and armour for at least 35 years.
I was watching a music video of band called ALT-J for their song Something Good.
You can look at it here:
http://vimeo.com/49588649
Although the video does not concern itself with bullfighting, per se, you get some pretty clear images of the sword that the matador is holding- which, to me, has some distinctive characteristics. The sport of bullfighting does not interest me greatly but I am fascinated by a western sword disciple that has made it through to our times.

Has anyone on the site handled such a sword? Perhaps you own one.
Would you be kind enough to share some of your impressions or examples of the handling characteristics and/or techniques used? Perhaps there is someone on the site who has been a bullfighter how could provide some information regarding training?
I have done some research myself regarding these swords (estoque, estoc) but haven't found any information on whether they were used as a weapon outside of the bullfighting arena.
Does anyone have any leads regarding this?

Thanks
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,820

PostPosted: Fri 30 Aug, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Can we start this discussion again?

Sure

Quote:
I recognise you now from your discussion techniques.

Feel free to shoot me a PM for any clarifications or assessments you might need in conclusion. I am not hard to find online.

Cheers

GC

http://my.opera.com/3sails/albums/
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