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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 21 Aug, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Scottish Sword Identification help, please.         Reply with quote

Hello,
I've been a long-time lurker here having had a long-time interest in weapons.
Originally, I was into medieval/fantasy role-playing games when I was a kid in the early '80s. My interest grew into collecting and painting of fantasy/historical miniatures and a small collection of swords and bayonettes. I have also had a strong interest in my Scottish ancestry and that led to the purchase of this sword in about 1988:

It appeared in the window of a shop that is used to pass every day on the way to work and I was the first person to ask about it. I think the lady in the shop liked me as I used to say hello to her every day. Anyway, It ticked a big box in my Scottish interest.
She sold it to me for $120 AUD- A big chunk of my 17 y/o 1988 wage. I was pretty sure I had a good bargain.
I don't know exactly what it is other than, perhaps, a Blackwatch officer 's sword...?
Here's some more pictures that may help someone to identify it correctly.











So, thanks in advance for any information.
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,184

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug, 2013 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is an 1828 pattern broadsword. However, and I am fairly certain of this from looking at your photos, it is an Indian-made reproduction. There is sword identical to this one propped in the corner a few feet from where I am sitting, writing this post. The blade is the primary clue as the "engraving" appears to be cast or photo etched rather than engraved. As nearly as I can tell from your photos, there is no maker's mark or other identification on the blade and there would be on an original. The proof lozenge is found on better Indian reproductions. The basket liner is also different from those found on originals but identical to the liner which came with my sword. You will also notice that the six pointed star is rather off-kilter on the ricasso. The blade configuation is atypical over all. If you can obtain a copy of Harvey Withers' book The Scottish Sword 1600-1945 you will see a number of quality photos of 1828 pattern swords.

I have had one of these for the last 28 years, buying it from Track of the Wolf, and used to wear it at Highland Games on a homemade baldric. I removed the basket liner years ago. Folks have asked me if it is an original and, of course, I told them no. Even though I have since acquired a number of much more authentic basket hilts, I have hung on to this one since it was my first and only for a very long time. A photo of mine is attached.

The price you paid was reasonable so enjoy it.



 Attachment: 55.16 KB
Indian BH.jpg


Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982


Last edited by Lin Robinson on Thu 22 Aug, 2013 8:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,785

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Period or reproduction; swords of the period were etched, not engraved.

Cheers

GC
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,184

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Period or reproduction; swords of the period were etched, not engraved.

Cheers

GC


Thanks for the correction.....

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
It is an 1828 pattern broadsword. However, and I am fairly certain of this from looking at your photos, it is an Indian-made reproduction. There is sword identical to this one propped in the corner a few feet from where I am sitting, writing this post. The blade is the primary clue as the "engraving" appears to be cast or photo etched rather than engraved. As nearly as I can tell from your photos, there is no maker's mark or other identification on the blade and there would be on an original. The proof lozenge is found on better Indian reproductions. The basket liner is also different from those found on originals but identical to the liner which came with my sword. You will also notice that the six pointed star is rather off-kilter on the ricasso. The blade configuation is atypical over all. If you can obtain a copy of Harvey Withers' book The Scottish Sword 1600-1945 you will see a number of quality photos of 1828 pattern swords.

I have had one of these for the last 28 years, buying it from Track of the Wolf, and used to wear it at Highland Games on a homemade baldric. I removed the basket liner years ago. Folks have asked me if it is an original and, of course, I told them no. Even though I have since acquired a number of much more authentic basket hilts, I have hung on to this one since it was my first and only for a very long time. A photo of mine is attached.

The price you paid was reasonable so enjoy it.

Hey, thanks so much for that.
I didn't realise that India had a sword reproduction industry back then, but that's hardly surprising.
I found another example here:
http://www.collectorssource.com/edged-weapons...llent.html

They suggest that the etch pattern has been pressed onto the blade.

Thanks again.
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 4:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure but I think your current post indicates a belief that this sword is 19th c. Actually the sword was probably made just a few years ago. These swords are still being made and are available from several sources in the US. Most that I have seen recently are marked "India" unlike the ones you and I own. But, they are not old and have no collector's value. I think Collectors Source is asking a lot more for theirs than it is worth in today's market.
Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
I'm not sure but I think your current post indicates a belief that this sword is 19th c. Actually the sword was probably made just a few years ago. These swords are still being made and are available from several sources in the US. Most that I have seen recently are marked "India" unlike the ones you and I own. But, they are not old and have no collector's value. I think Collectors Source is asking a lot more for theirs than it is worth in today's market.


No, I was up to speed with the apparent age.
Probably older than "just a few years ago" as I bought it 25 years ago.
But, it would depend on how you define "a few," I suppose.

I understand it is of little collector's value but, like you, it was the first sword I collected and has a special value to me.

Thanks again.
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,184

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I understand completely. I have had mine for 28 years so we bought them at roughly the same time. And you are right about the value which is sentimental and keeps me from even considering selling it in spite of the fact that I now have a closet full of mostly better repro swords!

Any way, keep looking for more stuff down there but as I understand it, there are not many places in Australia to find swords. Is that correct? I actually sold one of mine to a lady for her son who lived in Australia and the shipping was almost as much as the cost of the sword. But she paid and said she was glad to get it.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
I understand completely. I have had mine for 28 years so we bought them at roughly the same time. And you are right about the value which is sentimental and keeps me from even considering selling it in spite of the fact that I now have a closet full of mostly better repro swords!

Any way, keep looking for more stuff down there but as I understand it, there are not many places in Australia to find swords. Is that correct? I actually sold one of mine to a lady for her son who lived in Australia and the shipping was almost as much as the cost of the sword. But she paid and said she was glad to get it.

There are a few Australian sword dealers who supply the re-anactment and WMA communities. They mostly deal online, though.
Tasmania is a bit of a backwater in some ways but there are a lot of former colonial estates here. That means rich European families bringing stuff out here. Now, many years later, a lot of antiques have been dispersed among the general population as those families have grown. I have been talking to a local antiques dealer and I inquired if he ever had swords and other weapons. He told me that he had other antiques dealers who would buy anything he got but out of the blue offered me first dibs on anything he obtained. That's pretty generous! The down-side is the potential impact to the bank account.
If only I had more money at my disposal as a younger fella because I saw lots of items for sale at arms fairs that I'd love to have now. I remember antique tulwars being sold for about $20 and not buying them because the blade was loose. Little did I know how easily that could be fixed. Oh well...

One of the best purchases I made was of a Austrian Pioneer Corp falchion that I still have. Love it.
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