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Kristoffer K





Joined: 19 Aug 2013

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Bazubands/lamellar used in Western Europe?         Reply with quote

Greetings everyone!

I am currently planning my armour for HMB fighting. But I could use some help with a few issues.. Happy

So far I've decided to use a bascinet with a grilled visor for maximum view and breathability (with respectable safety)

From 1385: http://www.friendsofart.net/en/art/master-of-...surrection

For body protection I'll be using a Coat of Plates (Visby type 1) or something semilar.

My leg protection will probably be half plate with a floating knee cup.

I'd like to use hourglass shaped plate mittens for hand protection.

Now my question is regarding protection for my arms.. I like the design of the Bazubands, and I've found this site with a design claimed to be of western origin (note the sleeping guard picture).

http://orderandcreativity.com/?cat=9

Is anyone able to tell witch period / area this could be used in western europe? Would they fit in with the rest of my 1360-1385 german / scandinavian inspired kit? Happy

Last but not least.. Does anyone have experience fighting full contact (HMB) with a lamellar armour semilar to the find from Visby? I am considering crafting one from 1 mm spring steel, but I am not sure If I'll end up having to repair it after every round of fighting.. ?

I hope you guys can help me! Thanks in advance anyhow.. Happy

Best regards
Kristoffer, Denmark
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your link is from 1330-1350, not 1385: Freiburger Munster, Breisgau, Germany. Similar elbow guards appear in Bodley MS 264, dated to 1338-1344 though they sometimes extend down from the rerebrace rather than up from the vambrace.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4373/7013/


Considering the Battle of Wisby occurred in 1361, and the Type I plates are being worn by militia, it would seem your best portrayal for the "bazubands" and Wisby plates on a noble would be 1330-1350.

Edit to add, all of the evidence for the Wisby lamellar armors indicate they were cut into bands and riveted into a foundation garment, like all the other pairs of plate in the graves. Thordeman spent considerable effort trying to reconstruct what the original lamellar armor looked like, but it was not the form of the armor during the battle.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Kristoffer
nice that you join the sport! From which country are you? Which disciplines are you planning to take part in?

I am from Germany and fight for four years in international tournaments, since two years also for our national team.
Lamellar armour is certainly used, especially the Russians and the Ukrainians often fight in far eastern attire (look up "Club Sharukhan, it's a famous russian club). It works but it has a slight disadvantage against plate regarding the weight/safety ratio.

For what it's worth, I would disencourage bargrills as visors. They are simply not the same and were not designed as a substitute for a real visor - the chance that a weapon might catch there is quite high. I have personally seen some serious injuries through these grills. Also, it's not a sportsmanlike thing to wear, giving you so much advantage and the opponent with the safe, real visor will have to take some care not to poke your eyes out... In Germany we have outlawed them.
Reading you initial post, I would first clear up which time and region you want your harness from. It's always tempting to find yourself some pieces you like and try to create a working harness from it, but it actually works the other way round. You need a rough idea of a working system for your armour. Also it#s important to keep the necessities of modern HMB fighting in mind. Best choose a harness style which does not depend largely on mail, as you would find in Germany around 1350 and up to 1380.

What exactly do you mean by half plate for the legs?

Plate mittens would also start much later then other parts of your armour - also I can understand why you would think you would need them. Wink
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 416

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Kristoffer!

I agree with Till, don't use a bargrill. Some of the guys who wear the Turban helmets wear them to reinforce their aventails, but a proper visor is much better. Sacrifice some of that visibility in order to save your face.

And I would be careful about using too thin plates in your armour, even if it is lighter. I can seriously bend 1mm plates with my bare hand, and I will if you fight me and I get a hold on some. Big Grin Some of the guys from our country have opted for this thin plate, and so later I will show you a video of what happens to their thin plates at our national trials, if you like (trials here are end of October). It's amazing how much difference 0.2 or 0.5 mm can make to overall strength. And the weight is not that much more to handle. Watch some videos and see which areas get hit more often, and use thicker plates there, ok?

And I would also be careful about calling Sharukhan Clan "Russian", because they're from Kharkov in the Ukraine. Cool

Lastly, I'd like to put out a friendly handshake to both Till and yourself, and see you soon, I hope! Big Grin I'm purely a team event guy, no 1 vs 1 for me.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

अजयखड्गधारी
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Henrik Granlid




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Apr 2012

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Tue 20 Aug, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bar-grills are popularized by SCA Heavy Combat, which uses rattan weapons that are too big to enter the grill, for any sort of steel combat, I would go with a proper visor. Imagine if a weapon-point enters your grill, it'll rattle around and act pretty much as a non-sharp blender blade, the nose and the eyes are all really rather squishy when compared to steel.

As for the thickness, 1.6-2mm steel is safer, end of story, but really, against steel blunts, they will get a worn and beaten appearance rather swiftly still, so you'll have to hammer it out or keep the dents.

Lastly, a floating kneecup (and similarly, an elbowcup) is not what I'd pick. It's much better to go with one that is attached either by some additional joint-plats or by strapping it properly to the rest of the armour, joints are something you really want to protect.

Also consider lobstered gauntlets rather than fingered, you can still go with the hourglass, but lobster grips are safer for the fingers due to there being no risk of applying too much preasure on an individual joint.
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Kristoffer K





Joined: 19 Aug 2013

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue 20 Aug, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First I'd like to thank you guys for all your advices, corrections and informations. I really appreciate it! Happy

The other pictures of my armguards are great!

I am from Denmark and wish to participate in 1vs1 (not the triathlon) and 5vs5 (Team Denmark is not nearly big enough to form a 21 man team to my knowledge). Happy

Regarding the period and area for my kit, then I don't have any background in reenactment or anything semilar. I'm just in it for the spectacular fights in historic armour. Therefore I'm not so strong in which helmet goes with what coat of plates etc., and I probably have some of the terms understood wrong.. However I'm interested in collecting a very functional kit (it is sports wear in my eyes) Happy and I would like it to be inspired by Denmark in the 14th century (I've read we were greatly influenced by Germany in that period) and for HMB the kit may be drawn from a period of 50 years..

Seeing I like the simplicity of the bazuband type arm guards used in Germany in the mid 14th C, and since you guys so strongly advice me not to use the bascinet with a grilled visor, I am considering the early bascinet with a noseguard and an aventail covering the face:

http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spot_basc03.jpg

I've read it should have been popular in Germany at the same period as my arm guards.. I would then add a hidden protection behind the aventail like the ones used on the russian helmets.. What do you think about that?

Generally regarding helmets, I take it visored bascinets without aventails would be much lighter than one with an aventail. What is your experience regarding this subject?

Regarding knee cups I think I got the term "floating" wrong.. I meant a simple cup with no moving plate parts, but fitted with holes to lace it together with my thigh protection as well as a strap to fix behind my knee. I have also considered a combined knee protection and greave semilar to this:

http://www.truehearth.com/comb_knee_greave.jpeg

Seeing the style fit well with the looks of the bazubands.. However I haven't managed to find any historic reference to them, and I'm not even sure the concept works well on the legs safetywise.. Happy

Regarding gauntlets I was planning on ordering something like the picture included in my post. Are they from much later? I really don't want to use fingered gauntlets..

Once again thanks for the warm welcome. Pleace forgive my ignorance (I spend many hours trying to learn) and I also hope to meeting you guys and perhaps cross blades with you when my gear is ready. Happy

Best regards
Kristoffer

Edit: By "half plate" I mean the armour will only cover the front half of my legs.. Happy



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Henrik Granlid




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Apr 2012

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Wed 21 Aug, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For HMB, you'll still be needing a padded aventail of some sort to properly protect your neck, a riveted maille aventail on top just looks plain better.

As for your period and inspiration, have a look at the Swedish event Battle of Visby, it's a battle from 1366 featuring poorly armed Swedish peasants against heavily armed Danish knights and men at arms. This should be EXACTLY what you are looking for.

What you'll see in plate armour are limb pieces, bascinets and globular harnesses. You can have a look at the Churburg armour for an example of plate.

There are also plenty of examples of splinted leather for arms and legs, I would, however, make sure to use cured leather for the splints and have some padding underneath.

As for the gauntlets, I'd definitely go for hourglass mittens rather than hourglass fingers.

EDIT: I would recommend a closed bascinet, either a plow, a round or a houndskull visor. The kind you want will need to be reinforced by a grill/bars underneath the aventail and the aventail will need to go far up enough for there to be no real risk to your eyes taking a shot. Watch the series Battle of the Nations on Youtube and you'll see an abundance of visored bascinets :-)
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Wed 21 Aug, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is top-quality armor for Denmark in the 1360s.
http://www.wolna.kompania.freshsite.pl/roskil...lde07.html

Whether the historic armor in use meets the safety requirements for the sport is another matter.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow Mart!
That's a VERY interesting effigy you dug up there. The first time I actually see a period depiction of a bascinet with vervelles and without aventail + mail standard.
Kristoffer, a Bascinet with noseguard is very fitting for the period you chose, but I wouldn't use it for one vs one fighting either. Same problem: too minimal eyeprotection.
A full visor is not such a great obstruction for your sight as some people think. You just have to train your eyes to the visor. After some time you will put the helmet on and barely notice the visor because your brain will work to simply ignore it.
aventails are not only looking better with the bascinet, but they give a very real and important part of protection for your neck and shoulders. Use it.
Leg armour: The upper leg should be protected by more then halve cuisses if you want to fight 5 vs 5. I mean, I'm a nice guy normally, but if I see you lingering around with halve cuisses on the 5 vs 5 battlefield, I go there like everybody else and give your unprotected legs a treatment of my falchion until you fall down. Quickly hopefully.
Actually thats a spot were you really want a plate to cover your thigh muscles.
Greaves with integrated kneecup were hip with the romans, an that only because it was so greek, but it give a really unpleasant gap in your armour right above the knee. This gap can also happen with badly fitted floating cups (in the sens you meant it), this was my alltime fastest knock out last year in one vs one. I just hit the guy once and he went down in pain.

Gauntlets: Mittens were introduced later in the 15th century. I think in the 1430ies? But good fingered gauntlets work really well, I have fought exclusively in them and never had an injury. But they need to be really good. You get them from well established Polish makers in hardened steel for at least 350 euro. Mild steel ones that are not heat treated work also well but are heavier as they need to be made out of 1,5mm sheet. They cost around 200 euro.. If you use a polearm, you can always point little steel disks to your fingers, we call them "fingershields". They have a 10 cm radius and cover the fingers really well.

Bazubands: I just remembered that there are a pair of original specimens from Estonia that might have been bazubands:



There was a very intense discussion on armourachive about them: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=143600

Second most interesting part of this are probably the fotos of a German effigy on page three of the thread:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2-VMPaD3v7k/Tzap3VKJmbI/AAAAAAAAAas/3lBL0lqOoMA/s640/index.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P-NY1aBXKOM/TzaqFONPlGI/AAAAAAAAAa0/GrLOpumq6mg/s640/index.jpg

If you use splinted armour, take care that the splints don't sit too far apart, a hit should always meet at least two splints, otherwise broken bones can happen. We had this several times this year in France and Germany.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a couple of 14th century German stained glass images no in the Munster Landesmuseum. The first may show leather vambraces with the elbow cup (bazubands), as well as rerebraces and greaves worn over mail. The second shows the splint armor similar to the Estonian example.
http://www.soniahalliday.com/category-view3.php?pri=GE99-2-12.jpg

http://www.soniahalliday.com/category-view3.php?pri=GE99-6-12.jpg
[/quote]

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Kristoffer K





Joined: 19 Aug 2013

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice, pictures and etc.. Happy

Cuisses with 3/4 protection has been ordered.. Happy Are greaves only covering half your calves not an issue? Are calves not a striking zone?

Regarding arm protection I'm a bit concerned about the protection level for my elbows compared to a simple elbow cup..

Regarding helmets then I think the bascinet with a nose guard, hidden protective bars and an aventail should offer semilar protection as the eastern style helmets I see so many russians use? I may be wrong though.. I already have a pot helmet for training, and the restrictive view really bothers me.. :-/
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