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Howard Waddell
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject: Saladin         Reply with quote

I can't help but wonder, as I read a bunch of stuff on the 3rd Crusade, if Osama Ben Laden hasn't modeled himself (and nol very well in my opinion, but then I am not an Arab) after Saladin... (and I wonder if the CIA has studied Saladin in order to understand Osama better -- if not, they should.)

Saladin, btw, was a Kurd, from Tikrit in what is now Iraq...

Best,

howy

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Lloyd Clark




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good pickup, Howy.

Back a few years when I was still in Naval Counter-terrorism, a few analysts had floated that issue as a possibility.

Unlike Qaddaffi, meglomania wasn't as apparent as a driving force in Bin Laden's motivation, however, many of his actions and his rhetoric seemed not to follow Koranic teachings. It was surmised that he may indeed has see himself as the new Saladin, and is patterning his organization based on historic Arabic military teachings.

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Lloyd Clark
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Brian M




Location: Austin, TX
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I think it's fair to say that just about every Arab despot tried to apply that analogy to himself. Saddam certainly saw himself as a new Saladin, out to unite the Arab world against the West. Nasser with his pan-Arab party as well. These two examples were much more secularist than Ben Laden, but the point is, that they and many others have tried to promote the comparison for their own political ends.

Brian M
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David R. Glier





Joined: 01 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And it was little old Nasser, the secularist, the unbeliever, who succeded more than any of the others. He at least, even if only for a little while, mannaged to unite Egypt and Syria, and managed to fight at least one war where he didn't embaress himself against the Israelis. 9_9

Every modern Arab leader has pointed back to the past and said they were going to bring back the glory days -bin Laden included.
We really don't have to worry about them, though. The extremism of Usama's crowd prevents them from developing leaders who can develop true power -while it makes them dangerous as terrorists and maybe even solders, it makes them incompetent as rulers. The minute they take the reins of a country, they destroy themselves.
It was Saddam who could have been great. He had the army to do it, he was a secularist who oppresed the overly religious. Fortunately for us, he was narcisistic and made too many enemies. A smarter man in his positon could have taken all of Iran's assets on the Caspian Sea, and taken Syria to boot. Instead he was a fool and threatened powers he couldn't possibly hope to defeat.

Let this be a lesson to us. If you want to be a conquering king, know your own strength, know all of your enemies' strengths, make friends with *everybody*, and conquer people that *nobody* likes. Cool
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 11:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian M wrote:
Well, I think it's fair to say that just about every Arab despot tried to apply that analogy to himself. Saddam certainly saw himself as a new Saladin, out to unite the Arab world against the West. Nasser with his pan-Arab party as well.
Brian M


Just a note: It is offensive to generalize muslims as "Arabs". This is not accurate. Some of them are and some are not. Much of the Muslim countries' population is persian (iran, afghanistan, etc.). Just as I get pissed if called a Russian, I imagine (and know for a fact) that persians do not like being called arabs. These are different people, with different culture, but sharing the same religion.

Alexi


Last edited by Alexi Goranov on Wed 08 Dec, 2004 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David R. Glier





Joined: 01 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

er... everyone that Brian mention *was* Arab. WTF?! Besides, our curreint crop of Militant Islam has been a primarily Arab (and arab-exproted) phenomena. The Iranians aren't in the same boat.
.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Caution gentlemen.

This discussion can lead to interesting historical comparisons, but don't let it degenerate into personal issues of ethnicity and religon.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David R. Glier wrote:
Let this be a lesson to us. If you want to be a conquering king, know your own strength, know all of your enemies' strengths, make friends with *everybody*, and conquer people that *nobody* likes.


Sounds like someone has been reading Machieveli. Cool There is quite a bit of truth in that comment though.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David R. Glier wrote:
And it was little old Nasser, the secularist, the unbeliever, who succeded more than any of the others. He at least, even if only for a little while, mannaged to unite Egypt and Syria, and managed to fight at least one war where he didn't embaress himself against the Israelis.


I had the impression that Nasser embarassed himself pretty well against the Israelis. Sadat did much better in '73. Nasser did manage to embarrass the US pretty well with the whole 'el waef Rusfel' deal (I am sure I butchered the arabic, so apologies to any arabic speakers).
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David R. Glier





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 10:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the 48 war, he got beaten about as well as it's possible to be beaten by a vastly smaller, underarmed force of irregulars.
Well enough that his enemies at least respected him until the next war, and as far as the end results go, that war came the closest to getting him what he wanted.

The 72 war was a suicide mission. >.< A suicide mission and disastrous failure that happened to be somehow spun into a propaganda victory. *shrug* Well, everybody can be excused of their first mistake. The stupidity of it -from a purely military standpoint- came after the battle when they (government and military) focused only on their initial gains, without looking at their losses later on, and anticipating similar results the next time around. Confused The idea is only original ONCE. 9_9

I'm actualy very sympathetic to the greater Arab cause and the problems Islam is having as a religion, for a handfull of reasons, and the more I read and learn, the more I'm frustrated. Historians, two hundred years from now are going to look back at this chunk of the world between Egypt and Syria and Kuwait and tear their hair out in empathic frustration. They're going to spend years asking themselves what went wrong, and how briliant men could behave so stupidly when they most needed common sense, and how things could have been allowed to go on as they do, and how in heaven's name could a people's greatest strength become the one thing that keeps them from gaining strenght of any other kind? Worried
*sigh*
don't mind me. I'm just a frustrated political scientist watching an entire people happily march themselves to the guillotines just so they can spit at the blade when it's coming down. Sad
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can one of you tell me how this topic is related to the arms and armour hobby?
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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 6:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Can one of you tell me how this topic is related to the arms and armour hobby?


Sorry Nathan -- my bad. I've been reading chronicles from the Third Crusade era (research on swords) and this thought just popped into my head... Too much of a stretch but I found that tidbit interesting...

Best,

Howy

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Björn Hellqvist
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, I find it heartening that we can have a slightly OT, but still polite and well-read discussion on a volatile subject. Shows how classy the members are! Wink
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David R. Glier





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PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Can one of you tell me how this topic is related to the arms and armour hobby?


Simple -it's all about the Guillotines! Razz
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 10:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Howard Waddell wrote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Can one of you tell me how this topic is related to the arms and armour hobby?


Sorry Nathan -- my bad. I've been reading chronicles from the Third Crusade era (research on swords) and this thought just popped into my head... Too much of a stretch but I found that tidbit interesting...

No apology needed. I was just curious as to the tie-in. I was certain there was one but thought it my dense head that caused me not to see it.

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Howard Waddell
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Howard Waddell wrote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Can one of you tell me how this topic is related to the arms and armour hobby?


Sorry Nathan -- my bad. I've been reading chronicles from the Third Crusade era (research on swords) and this thought just popped into my head... Too much of a stretch but I found that tidbit interesting...

No apology needed. I was just curious as to the tie-in. I was certain there was one but thought it my dense head that caused me not to see it.


Thanks, Nathan! Another tidbit more on topic -- according to some of the sources I am reading, the "Saracens" used primarily straight, double-edged swords in that period, not the curved swords generally imagined. I didn't know that, but then I am not up on Middle Eastern weaponry.

Best,

Howy

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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 10:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David R. Glier wrote:
I'm just a frustrated political scientist watching an entire people happily march themselves to the guillotines just so they can spit at the blade when it's coming down. Sad


Wow. Very nicely put. As a political scientist turned military officer, I have to say that's one of the most accurate metaphors I've heard yet. And it applies to all parties involved. It's that aspect of human nature that has made me the jaded and angry idealist I am today. Cry

P.S. Howard, there was a thread on that very subject not too long ago, complete with museum pictures. I don't remember what it was called, but shouldn't be hard to find.

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Gabriel Stevens




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Dec, 2004 12:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd heard that too Howard, though I don't recall where.....
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