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Stephen Burger




Location: United States
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jul, 2013 5:36 am    Post subject: Mid to late 14th century kit         Reply with quote

I'm working on assembling a kit from the mid-late 14th century. This will be my fist as I'm fairly new to this thing. I've read through this forum and others and I've learned a good bit but I've got some fairly specific questions.

I'm interested in being fairly authentic but I'm no Nazi. I'm making my own coat of plates and I'd like to fit the rest of the kit to it, since I'm quite fond of the COP. Likewise I'm making a haubergon of riveted maile but I'm not committed to a style (length or length of arms). I would like it to be fairly late 14th century and northern Italian/ Southern German is preferred. I study Fiore and would like to be reasonably authentic for his region and period and I would like a kit that can withstand a blow from a hardened rubber poleaxe without breaking bones.

So here are my questions.

Coat of Plates: Do I understand that, especially with poorer mercenaries or landless knights these were fairly pan-European and not strictly Scandanavian? Should one expect Italian coats of plates to begin taking on more of a brigandine quality by say 1380?

Haubergon - I'd prefer to make a longish one with longish sleeves. Is this anachronistic by this time? I don't plan to build in a coif. With the advent of hourglass gauntlets and such is it safe to say that the extension into mittens of the maile is definitely from an earlier period?

Arms - Are splinted arms such as the ones by GDFB fairly typical for this time? I like the look and the built in pauldrons of that unit. Would jack chains be more appropriate and were jack chains work over maile or just gambesons?

Legs/Groin/feet - I have no idea. I plan to spar some with blunted steel so I require this sort of protection even if some poorer fighting men may not have used this sort of thing in that period and I don't want a rich man's kit. Any suggestions?

I appreciate and insight you can give me on this. I'm very eager to assemble this beast.

Thanks
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jul, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen,

OK. with mail I'd do a long sleeved mid length hauberk for Germany. Looks like the hauberk remained pretty common defense into the 1370s there, plate added to it.

The COPs for the lesser troops can be pretty simple still to the Hirschstein castle one which is pretty well fit.

Which splints do you mean? They used the leather and splinted steel armour yes but less likely to see the splinted arms that GDFB uses for 15th century stuff.

Legs can be mail chausses with some plates or largely plate in Germany by this point.

RPM
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Tom King




Location: florida
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jul, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.8435.html
^may be of help.

if you go 1350ish a COP will work well, but around 1360-1370, based on funerary effigies, a globose breastplate will also fit the bill.

Roughfromthehammer.com sells breastplate blanks on the cheap; a mild steel globoise breatplate would cost $65
http://www.roughfromthehammer.com/gallery/gb.jpg

it would be pretty easy to make a copy of the Gottfreid von arnsberg harness
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Stephen Burger




Location: United States
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your responses. I appreciate your generosity of time. I do have some f/u questions.

Randall Moffett wrote:
Stephen,

OK. with mail I'd do a long sleeved mid length hauberk for Germany. Looks like the hauberk remained pretty common defense into the 1370s there, plate added to it.

By mid-length do you mean about mid-thigh? I've seen from earlier periods hauberks to the knee and sleeves that end in mittens but I think that would look dated in 1370s or so. Do I read you right that you're concurring with my take?

The COPs for the lesser troops can be pretty simple still to the Hirschstein castle one which is pretty well fit.

So if I read you right here you are saying anything from Wisby crude (large plates, less rivets, less tailoring and coarser fabric or leather and what I call the "flap lungs") to something almost brigandine-ish (smaller plates, more rivets finer cloth) would be acceptable for the period and the earlier looking might be seen on a mercenary or poor knight?

Which splints do you mean? They used the leather and splinted steel armour yes but less likely to see the splinted arms that GDFB uses for 15th century stuff
.

I was thinking of these http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...inted+Arms or even thesehttp://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0087 Would either of these be period and would they fit over the sleeves of both gambeson and hauberk? I prefer the former only because of the added protection and the shoulders which I feel are a bit vulnerable with the COP and hauberk, especially when using the azza


Legs can be mail chausses with some plates or largely plate in Germany by this point.

That's good to know. DId this include feet? How about groin?

Thanks again for your help. Since I'm really just starting out I like it that I can do it right before wasting money on something anachronistic for the period I'm looking to emulate.


RPM
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Stephen Burger




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom King wrote:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.8435.html
^may be of help.
Wow this is great. I'm all about my COP but I can also get into this. Holy cow that's really amazingly priced and since I am pretty handy I could so make that. Thanks for the lead.

if you go 1350ish a COP will work well, but around 1360-1370, based on funerary effigies, a globose breastplate will also fit the bill.

Roughfromthehammer.com sells breastplate blanks on the cheap; a mild steel globoise breatplate would cost $65
http://www.roughfromthehammer.com/gallery/gb.jpg


it would be pretty easy to make a copy of the Gottfreid von arnsberg harness


Thanks for the name drop on Herr von Arnsberg. That effigy is really detailed and lends itself to copying. $65 for a brestplate isn't bad at all and I'm already making a hauberk so that's great. This is a pretty expensive hobby and that's small change in comparison. That'll leave me more money to get a quality helm $$$$
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Tom King




Location: florida
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you have the ability and patience to cut sheet metal.... what am i saying you're attempting to make a hauberk, or course you have patience Wink

you may want to make your own helmet and the characteristic arm defenses of that one harness; it is pretty easy and there are a variety of patterns available (although a bacinent may be a bit difficult without a full armor workshop, a greathelm is surprisingly simply). if you live in an area where you can jig saw big pieces of sheet steel i'd say go for it.

if not, woodsarmoury sells a set of the arms, as well as knee cops and other goodies to flush out the harness, but the schynbalds and upper arm protection are just flat forms with a central rib and easily made in the garage workshop with a jigsaw , a ballpeen, and a large vice
http://www.woodsarmoury.com/armour-harness-arm.asp
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Stephen Burger




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's great Tom. I like that a lot. As for patience I've never been one much for finish work but I'm not afraid of a big project. Do you know how much polish was typically used back in the day? I see those arm piece aren't very polished. From reading on this forum the pieces that we know of with high shine and such were show pieces for court and such. For the battle field would that less highly polished style be more typical? I'm thinking along the lines of bluing my stuff as well but one could polish a lot before bluing. I'd rather not get too crazy with polishing and if that is more accurate let's call it serendipity. Same goes for the breast plates and such, I don't mind cleaning on and making it somewhat pretty but I get lost on the diminishing returns of high shine.
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A satin finish seems pretty typical amongst the reenactment community; a high polish can be good since it can diminish the chance of rust, but scratches are much more apparent and jarring. if you plan on using your kit for combat, then a fine satin finish should give a nice 'metal" quality while being easy to bring back to the color.

As to blackening, most commercial bluing agents that don't utilize a salt bath make a very thin, easily scratched blackened coating that would be unsuitable for combat armor; and as far as a know, there are no examples of bluing on harnesses from this period.

As to the finish of the breastplate, it'll be covered by a fitted jupon on most harnesses based on funerary effigies and period artwork, so it doesn't matter that much.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen,

I suspect you could use a long sleeved and knee length or mid thigh length hauberk by 1370 in Germany.

Many of the Wisby COPs are in my estimation old fashioned by 1361 when the battle took place. By 1370 even more so. If I were to do one for 1370 it'd be more like Hirshstein if I were a knight or wealthy commoner but if less wealthy something like some of the less developed COPS at Wisby. Anything like the Kussnacht COPS is likely 1340s and Hirshstein 1350s. But generally the horizontal COPS tend to have bigger plates and be more boxy and the vertical ones get more and more rows up and down while earlier ones taller and fewer, perhaps one row around of the vertical plates. The more developed horizontal have more and thinner horizontal plates with more shaped chest plates and the more developed vertical ones have many rows up and down with shorter vertical plates and often more shaped chests as well.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27277

kussnacht
http://tgorod.ru/contentimage/kussnach/image3.jpg

Earlier COPS are like Wisby 7or 13.

As for feet on chausses, yep looks pretty common. I'd have to review german effigies and art but looks like mail and splinted armour was common there for longer than much of mainstream Europe.


The rough from the hammer breastplate is a good deal but you need to be able to cut 16 gauge metal and roll edges and do metal working as it is not fully formed. The also need be fit to the wearer.

Those types of splints from woods armoury are very nice for this period.

I agree with the finish question with tom. If you use it it will get scratches and mirror is way easier to notice than a lesser finish but you are right more smooth and less rust... an evit catch 22.

And he is right about the textile importance as well. During this period most have a jupon or arming coat or something at this period

RPM
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Stephen Burger




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jul, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry yet again for the slow reply but I want to thank you all for the great suggestions. I'm chewing on what I'm going to do next. I'll share when I put this thing together. Thanks!
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Stephen Burger




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I did some searching around this site around neck protection during the era and I would love to work a bevor or gorget into this kit. It seems very sketchy about what may have been worn at this time and I didn't sense that anyone was super certain about what might have been worn. I imagine, depending on the helmet chosen that either a coif or aventail would be employed but that doesn't provide much protection against blunt force as would even boiled leather or plates would. Is there any reason to think that something of the sort might be accurate for the period and not too terribly exotic. I don't want to be reaching for something that "might have been" so if there's really no reason to think it was. For sparring I might throw the accuracy out the window and employ something for my own safety but then removing it if i want to be a 14th century hipster.
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jul, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Burger wrote:
I did some searching around this site around neck protection during the era and I would love to work a bevor or gorget into this kit. It seems very sketchy about what may have been worn at this time and I didn't sense that anyone was super certain about what might have been worn. I imagine, depending on the helmet chosen that either a coif or aventail would be employed but that doesn't provide much protection against blunt force as would even boiled leather or plates would. Is there any reason to think that something of the sort might be accurate for the period and not too terribly exotic. I don't want to be reaching for something that "might have been" so if there's really no reason to think it was. For sparring I might throw the accuracy out the window and employ something for my own safety but then removing it if i want to be a 14th century hipster.


For mid to late 14th century, neck protection generally fits the category of aventail or pisane (basically what the late 15th century calls a maille standard, a strip of maille wrapped around the neck), or both worn in conjunction. A gorget or bevor isn't really appropriate. Rigid neck protection seems to come in to vogue with the advent of the Great Bascinet come the time of Agincourt.

If you want to read a much more detailed discussion on aventails and pisans, then check out this thread on the Armour Archive:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=163273

For sparring, a rigid neck defense is a good way to go, but as you say, it wouldn't be accurate to your chosen era of portrayal. I would most definitely recommend a low-profile gorget that could be worn underneath an aventail or pisane to give you the protection needed during live sparring.

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jul, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As early as 1344, Mildenhall's receipts in the Royal Wardrobe lists "9 pisanes, 5 of mail and 4 of plate". In 1353, Rothwell takes over and accounts "148 pisanes, 4 of plates of iron the other 144 of mail", so pisanes made of plates existed, but were quite rare. Here's an example in a contemporary miniature.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4143/7366/

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Stephen Burger




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Aug, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't really want to bump this thread but I also don't want to start a new one on the same topic. I've been continuing my research and I've been asking the occasional tangential question here. I've decided to go towards the early side of my range, perhaps even 1350. I'm sticking with German, not too wealthy. As I've been reading along and looking at various manuscripts and reading other threads I've got another couple of questions.

Here's what I'm looking to assemble. I already have much of this assembled, most of my own construction.

Hauberk
Coat of Plates (wisby-like)
Rondel shoulders (epaulettes) and elbows
Poleyns
Maile chausses
Rerebraces ala von Arnsberg
Splinted vambraces
hourglass gauntlets.
Possibly schynbalds
Oakshott viia longsword


Helmet - Now that I'm sliding earlier may I use a bascinet with a long nosed visor? I've read a lot of literature about bascinets and it would seem like I could but would great helms be more common at this time or bascinets of a different style? For my sparring activities a visor-less bascinet isn't an option. I like aventails vs. coifs, so if I could pull that off at 1350 with my class and region, bonus.

Arming coat/Gambeson/aketon etc. and/jupon. So it seems like I'm right on the line between the period of the fitted hauberk over a fitted aketon and a bulkier, boxier configuration later. I have two that I use for sparring with wasters, one is http://revival.us/14thcgambesonitalianzuparello.aspx and the other is a bulky pullover unit from Hanwei (whomever they get theirs from) with a split front and back. From a movement perspective the zuparello is much better. It's cotton and I'm sure it's machine stitched so it's not going to pass muster in some circles but from a style perspective is it more correct? Should my hauberk be similarly fitted as was done earlier or was that falling out of fashion by 1350.

As for jupons, I think they were still worn at this time. Who sells a simple jupon? I don't feel much like a seamstress. I'm not looking to do anything with heraldry, I don't think it fits my status anyway.

Anyway, thanks for all the help so far. I'm getting pretty pumped about this project.

Thanks,

Steve
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Julian Behle




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Aug, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

About houndskulls: I think they are typical for the time of lets say 1370 onward though I am tempted to get one for thesame timeframe as well. flatter visors appear to be more appropriate and a great helm works too.

You are right about the turningpoint from less fitting fashion to the wasp-waist. I would tend to the more tightly fitted armour, as it is much more comfortable the more plate you add.

Hauberks were still worn throughout the century but it depends on your leg harness. A full hauberk gives better protection to the upper leg when you only wear chausses. but it is always extra weight on the limbs that slows you down.

With the jupon, there is a middle way solurtion. I would not recommend a long surcoat though a long one which is short in the front could be of interest to you.

I always tend to lean my kit on the earliest pieces existing and not the old stuff. I like plate and so I gather a full suit of the most recent tecnology in 1350 as you stick more to maille, it would work, especially for Germany, it depends on the style you favour. The best of this time frame of transition: you always have the option to mix some elements.
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W. Scott Brown





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PostPosted: Mon 05 Aug, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the cool things about a 1350's harness is that you get to use ailettes. Also in England the cyclas style surcoat that's shorter in front than in the back becomes popular around this time, as does side-lacing of the surcoat, but these are believed by some to be developments of plate leg armor, which was not around much in Germany by 1350. I'm afraid in Germany fashions changed much slower than in England and Italy. Far more likely is that Germany was closer to the French style of the times, which is knee-length closed sucoats.

Also, there is no such thing as a type VIIIa sword in Oakshot typology. Did you mean XIIIa? This style sword would be appropriate for 14th century Germany, but it would probably mean fighting without a shield as the XIIIa is quite large.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Aug, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Burger wrote:
Thanks for your responses. I appreciate your generosity of time. I do have some f/u questions.

Randall Moffett wrote:
Stephen,

OK. with mail I'd do a long sleeved mid length hauberk for Germany. Looks like the hauberk remained pretty common defense into the 1370s there, plate added to it.

By mid-length do you mean about mid-thigh? I've seen from earlier periods hauberks to the knee and sleeves that end in mittens but I think that would look dated in 1370s or so. Do I read you right that you're concurring with my take?


Although our gut reaction is to dismiss mail mufflers altogether, they are still shown in German manuscripts from the 1360s:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...anuscript=


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Stephen Burger




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Aug, 2013 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oops, I meant XIIa not VIIa. 7/12 same difference? LOL I have a Tinker Pearce Training Longsword. It has a rounded tip and some hardware that is modern but it's basic format is XIIa, which as I understand it fits my period.

As for maile, I broke down and purchased some Indian riveted maile. I was at a point where I needed more rings, they were hard to come by (everyone out of stock) and these were less expensive than what I was making (in other words at worst I broke even and I don't have a bagillion hours in it). Bottom line I figure I'll do some tailoring to make it work. So now that it's here I have some questions about fit and style. It's about mid-thigh and a 3/4 sleeve. The sleeve needs some tailoring to make them a little tapered/tighter and of course it's basically a tube on the body. I'm reasonably fit and I don't have much of a gut. It actually fits nicely in the waste but I will need to add a little chest level expansion. If I don't match the rings would that be odd? I'm under the impression from posts I've read that this might have been common. Is that so? I'll be covering it most times but I'm looking to know what I need to cover to fend off the nazis.

I also don't find the hips to be unnecessarily tight. There is no slit but looking at the 14th century German manuscripts that I've seen, I see a lot of what appears to be entire skirts with no slit. They may be out of view (sides?) I guess, but would I be wrong to do without? I'm not riding a horse anytime soon. Otherwise I feel the fit is actually pretty decent. The neck hole/collar is a bit big. I could fill that with rings or use a cord of some kind to close it but I'm thinking a coif, pisane or aventail would cover it anyway as does the COPs and it doesn't bother me as is. No biggy right?

I'll have to give a look around for the surcoats that I might find that fit the bill. I like that idea.

Steve
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Aug, 2013 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Burger wrote:
The sleeve needs some tailoring to make them a little tapered/tighter and of course it's basically a tube on the body. I'm reasonably fit and I don't have much of a gut. It actually fits nicely in the waste [sic] but I will need to add a little chest level expansion. If I don't match the rings would that be odd? I'm under the impression from posts I've read that this might have been common. Is that so? I'll be covering it most times but I'm looking to know what I need to cover to fend off the nazis.


An M1 Garand is useful for fending off Nazis. Happy But seriously. the sleeves will need a lot of tapering. 3/4 sleeves of mail with vambraces of mail or plate beneath pretty much go out of fashion in the 1340s. You should remove rows on the inside of the upper arm using 'knot row' contractions. If you want long sleeves, this thread on Armour Archive provides excellent visual evidence of how the elbow is formed and forearm contracted.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...ail+sleeve

Wallace A7 is a fine example of a mail shirt made from differing styles of rings, likely by different shops at different times. The heavy collar and reinforced gussets in the arm pits appear to have been added to the main shirt at a later date, as were the lighter forearms. Repair links can also be identified because they are not the same as the main body and upper arms.

Quote:
I also don't find the hips to be unnecessarily tight. There is no slit but looking at the 14th century German manuscripts that I've seen, I see a lot of what appears to be entire skirts with no slit. They may be out of view (sides?) I guess, but would I be wrong to do without? I'm not riding a horse anytime soon. Otherwise I feel the fit is actually pretty decent. The neck hole/collar is a bit big. I could fill that with rings or use a cord of some kind to close it but I'm thinking a coif, pisane or aventail would cover it anyway as does the COPs and it doesn't bother me as is. No biggy right?


You don't need a slit at the lower hem. You do need expansions over the hips. Attached are Erik Schmid's diagram of the expansions and contractions in Wallace A2, and E.M. Burgess' marked expansions in the 14th century mail shirt from Sinigaglia.

After c. 1350 you really need an attached collar on the shirt itself. This does not replace the pisane and aventail, but augments them. Don't use a drawstring: Tailor the neck opening to make it smaller.

Doug Strong's analysis of German effigies might also provide some guidance for overall equipment.
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effi...figies.htm



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Sinigaglia expansions.jpg


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Wallace A2 expansions.jpg


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Stephen Burger




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Aug, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To close that collar could I use brass rings? I was thinking of doing some trim that way as well. I've seen some done in that way and I suspect it's historical at some point but is it at my time?

Steve
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