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Harrison M




Location: FSU, Tallahassee, FL
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Terminology question for helmet decoration         Reply with quote

Hello all! I was wondering if anyone might know the proper term for the 'circlet' around this helmet. I've had a terrible time trying to track down its proper name in google.

Additionally, any info on where to buy one, or how to make one would be very appreciated!

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Joshua McGee





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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not the best expert on the matter, but I thought these particular "circlets" were an SCAdianism or Renn Faire thing, at least in this form.
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If it were on a bascinet, I would feel confident calling it an orle, but some people think they played a role in nesting a great helm over top, which isn't something a barbute would be needing...

This is an orle:



I am not sure if anyone knows quite how they were made - I have read that they may have been tooled, gilded and decorated leather, but I cannot remember details or my source.

-Hildebrandt

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Harrison M




Location: FSU, Tallahassee, FL
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I've seen images from the period of these things on top of great helms, so I myself I am little skeptical of how much they may have been used as nesting for under it. Though also given how they end up combined with heralding helmet crest design later on, I'd say they probably have an origin as just decoration.

I've read somewhere that the fashion, in Italy at least is some what influenced by contact with the Islamic world. And indeed, while hard to track down any specific images of them, they do appear in the costumes of the pageantry and costumes involved in the renaissance and medieval festivals around Italy.

http://wishversilia.blogspot.com/2012/05/jous...-june.html
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Harrison M




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh a different note, I actually managed to track down the term: "Torse"
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Hildebrandt wrote:
If it were on a bascinet, I would feel confident calling it an orle, but some people think they played a role in nesting a great helm over top, which isn't something a barbute would be needing...

I am not sure if anyone knows quite how they were made - I have read that they may have been tooled, gilded and decorated leather, but I cannot remember details or my source.

-Hildebrandt


Thanks for posting this photograph! I've reasearched bascinets with orles (torse) in the past and don't recall comming across this one before.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Iagoba Ferreira





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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jun, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.greatestbattles.iblogger.org/Italy...e_left.htm
Not the best photo, but many can be seen on the infantrymen open helmets.

In "the battle of San Romano" an infantryman wears a massive one...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...lo_016.jpg

Both Italian...
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jun, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm... hope that's not from Toby Capwell's as-yet unpublished PhD thesis. What is the source Jeffrey?
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jun, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As to the OP, putting a torse on a 14thC bascinet is a SCAdianism. A torse and mantlet on a great helm is appropriate and encouraged. On a celata di Venezia? Unlikely, unless for a parade. On a grand bascinet? Sure, for the tournament.

The orle seems to be a fashion peculiar to early 15thC England. Very elaborate and distinctive decoration!
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jun, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel, I found that one on effigiesandbrasses.com. The recently improved website is very accessible.
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jun, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
As to the OP, putting a torse on a 14thC bascinet is a SCAdianism....


Sir John Mainwaring was born about 1330 and died 1410. He is depicted (above) wearing a 14th century bascinet with torse / orle.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Jun, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Hildebrandt wrote:
Kel, I found that one on effigiesandbrasses.com. The recently improved website is very accessible.


Excellent! Galfred keeps adding & adding to that site, time to revisit it. ;-)
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Jun, 2013 1:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
Kel Rekuta wrote:
As to the OP, putting a torse on a 14thC bascinet is a SCAdianism....


Sir John Mainwaring was born about 1330 and died 1410. He is depicted (above) wearing a 14th century bascinet with torse / orle.


You might look into the date the effigy was done. Even slightly prior to his death is still 15thC. The English retained the bascinet well into the first quarter of the 15thC.
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Harrison M




Location: FSU, Tallahassee, FL
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Jun, 2013 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
As to the OP, putting a torse on a 14thC bascinet is a SCAdianism. A torse and mantlet on a great helm is appropriate and encouraged. On a celata di Venezia? Unlikely, unless for a parade. On a grand bascinet? Sure, for the tournament.

The orle seems to be a fashion peculiar to early 15thC England. Very elaborate and distinctive decoration!


You can spot at least one on not great helms in most of these paintings...

http://www.greatestbattles.iblogger.org/Italy...entury.htm
http://www.maisonstclaire.org/common/mss_imag...sh%20a.jpg
http://nordonart.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/mor...tiquaires/
http://www.mskgent.be/library/Weense-meester_Verovering-JVZY.jpg

(and this is just the result of a quick google search - I'm sure a more dedicated effort would return many more.)
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Brian Ames




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Jun, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most basic heraldry COA websites name the portions of a great helm’s accouterments.

The crest is the charge or device, the mantle is the covering of either cloth or leather which the device is on top of and the torse is the cord or twisted fabric ‘holding’ the mantle onto the helm.

The mantle would be the primary color and metal of the knight’s COA. The torse is supposed to be the colors/favor of your lady.



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Jun, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW, Embleton and Howe refer to them as "turbans" in their medieval soldier book. That might be a placeholder term in lieu of an historical term.
-Sean

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Harrison M




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jun, 2013 6:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
FWIW, Embleton and Howe refer to them as "turbans" in their medieval soldier book. That might be a placeholder term in lieu of an historical term.


It's just as well - since while 'Torse" doesn't seem to quite be the correct word - but an inventory of Italian paintings and other art works from the period show that these are certainly being used on Barbutes and Bascinets I'm comfortable with looking into making my own, and now being able to defend the authenticity of wearing one.
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M. Curk




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jun, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not sure if this is correct since it was probably a fasion thing, but wouldn't it keep your helmet a bit cooler if soaked in water before use? This just came to my mind as I was reading and the more I think, the more probable it seems to me.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jun, 2013 3:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, it would, but it would also rust very fast...
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M. Curk




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Jun, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, this might be a problem, but on a battlefield I probably wouldn't mind getting my helm a bit more rusty (as there are certainly other factors like sweat or rain present that cause it) if that kept my head cooler. But for the reenactment purposes...
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