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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 29 May, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Cinquedea maker ???         Reply with quote

I just purchase this very nice Cinquedea and I wonder if any of you can identify the maker or the production compagny ?


The " mystery " Cinquedea as this was a pre-owned dagger and Kult of Athena didn't know who the original maker was except that it was made in the Czech Republic.

It's a very heavy bladed dagger and much more like a short sword and would hit like an axe as it has little distal taper: Now for a sword this might be a bad thing, but for a much shorter blade it gives it power and presence.

Total length is 21 1/2"
Blade length is 15 5/8"
Handle length is 5"
Blade width is 2 7/8"

Weight is 2 pounds 8 oz.

The etching on the blade is nice and clean with the background darkened in some way: Not sure if it's bluing or some paint or the colour left by the acid etch ?

The drawings are identical on both sides and I assume some sort of of transfer method used with a stencil ? Same for the etchings on the guard.

The blade came with varying sharpness that I'm evening out to a paper cutting edge and the steel's heat treat seems very good as it's harder to sharpen than a Del Tin sword I hand sharpened: So I think it's maybe 52 r.c. to maybe 55 r.c., the diamond hones do sharpen it but a chain saw sharpening file doesn't bite into the steel using medium pressure. My hardness estimations are based on hand sharpening many swords or knives of varying hardnesses in the past and a 50 r.c. blade feels a lot different than a 62 r.c. blades when honing.

The handle seems to be some nice hardwood that could be rosewood, but I'm really not sure.

The short handle with a very square sectioned handle is surprisingly comfortable and the brass cap over the end of the handle forming a kind of pommel ends up naturally in a handshake grip supported by the meaty base of the palm on the little finger side.

A couple of nice decorative " medallions " seem to be castings.

Overall a solid and robust Cinquedea with etched triple fullers transitioning to deep double fullers.

Again a purchase from Kult of Athena of a pre-owned dagger at a very affordable price, $179.95 : I also want to mention that Ryan on his site description of the Cinquedea was very ethical in mentioning some minor scratches and scuffing on the blade as well that the sharpness of the edges was not uniform. The " flaws " are barely noticeable by me, but it gives great confidence buying pre-owned products as Ryan is very scrupulous about mentioning any flaws he notices.



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Close up of " medalion ".

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Brass pommel.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 29 May, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And more pics of the Cinquedea: I really like this dagger/short sword even if I don't know who made it.


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P. Schontzler




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PostPosted: Wed 29 May, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The detail is amazing, great find.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Wed 29 May, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe a custom one-off by Nielo? They are Czech, aren't they? Very nice , indeed. I saw this, and thought it fascinating. Great detail. Jean, you lucky dawg, you............McM
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Radovan Geist




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PostPosted: Wed 29 May, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It could be also this guy: http://www.armorymarek.com/cinquedea-katzbalger
Your specific piece is not listed in his gallery, but it looks similar. Plus, Pavel Marek makes blades that are on the "substantial" / heavy side of the scale (I have one of his langmessers that testifies it, but itīs still a very good weapon for training).
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Ian Hutchison




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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would also say it looks like Armory Marek.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies so far, no positive identification yet.

I found this one in Nathan's COLLECTION that is based on the same original, but I don't think that the one I have could be from the same maker as there are some subtle differences in the greater crispness of the fullers and how they terminate, also the ebony handle is rounded/melted versus mine being very flat on the side flats with 90 degree corners to the top and bottom of the grip .

http://www.myArmoury.com/dagg_jfs_cinq.html

Mine does seem to be a very VERY close copy of the " J.F. Schroeder Cinquedea ": So maybe a case of copying from another maker ?

The pic of the original on which the Schroeder is based is subtlety different with a shorter section where there is the etching on the blade over the triple fullers, also a more triangular blade and a different handle.

So the Schroeder version is " inspired " by the period original and " original " to this maker: The " mystery '" version is clearly closely copied from the Schroeder and not just another interpretation of the original piece.

I don't think that mine is a mis-identified Schroeder made piece, assuming he made more than one ..... anyway, I'm not 100% certain of this, but obviously not, if the Czech origin of the piece is accurate.

By the way, I'm not really obsessing about who made this Cinquedea, but I'm certainly curious enough to want to know more about the " actual " maker(s). Wink Big Grin

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian Hutchison wrote:
I would also say it looks like Armory Marek.


I had a look at the Cinquedeas made by Armoury Marek and none of the one's on the site match the one I have.

A much older production pieces might a possibility, but I tend to not feel that it's from the same maker in the way the finish is done and general impressions of the way fullers are cut, handles mostly rounded in counter etc ....
Just call it a gut feeling that mine wasn't made by the same hand(s) .... just a guess. Wink Cool

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is an Indian made piece commissioned by a California man named J.F. Schroeder in the late 90s.

I have one, too: http://www.myArmoury.com/dagg_jfs_cinq.html

I once sold them. Yours is one of three variations that were commissioned. The run was very small, probably about 100 pieces overall.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
It is an Indian made piece commissioned by a California man named J.F. Schroeder in the late 90s.

I have one, too: http://www.myArmoury.com/dagg_jfs_cinq.html

I once sold them. Yours is one of three variations that were commissioned. The run was very small, probably about 100 pieces overall.


Ah, thanks, so I guess the origin being Czech was wrong !

Ryan at Kult of Athena got this one for sale by someone who had purchased it at some sort of Renaissance fair, and that buyer was told by the seller at the Fair that it was Czech made: So that is the history of the mis-identification of the piece.

I guess the variations may have been with the woods used in the handle and maybe other details that would be interesting to know, assuming that you know. Wink

In any case I'm really happy with it in general: It's probably too heavy compared to a period original and the steel's heat treat seems very good and I've evened out the edges to a more uniform paper cutting edge except for close to the point which is always the most difficult part of a blade to sharpen.

A little more work to maybe make the edge more blended into the primary bevel for a more apple seed edge.

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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a piece of additional info, the other variation was made with bone (or water buffalo horn?) for the grip. Each example showed their own individual characteristics of shaping and whatnot because they were all hand-forged in an Indian factory by a very small team of craftspeople. About half of the original order was rejected. The remaining pieces--those that were sold--were among the best shaped, researched modern-made replicas available back in the mid- to late- 90s.

Back then it was difficult to find pieces for sale that were much more than just "visually similar" to historical examples. The J.F. Schroeder pieces that were made certainly leave a lot to be desired for a faithful reproduction of extant originals, but they still remain very, very nice modern-made pieces. In their time, there wasn't much out there that was better.

I don't want to add a link to it here and drive traffic to it, but there is a seller right now on the 'net that was once the arms and armour "expert" for the TV show Pawn Stars. On his site is a J.F. Schroeder cinquedea that he's listing as "Victorian" and has a hefty price on it. I've messaged him about it several times but he's apparently not interested in responding to me or updating his listing. I mention this as an indication as to how visually convincing these cinquedeas are to some folks.

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Ian Hutchison




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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, very interesting development. Small world I guess!
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks again Nathan for the information: The fact that these where hand forged and made by a variety of different craftsmen explains a lot the variations in fuller terminals and some small difference in dimensions between mine and the one in your collection.

In any case the results ended up making a very good quality Cinquedea aesthetically but also as a true weapon: I always judge or appreciate weapons when they are made " as if for period use " and avoid design or materials flaws that would make a weapon unreliable.

A poorly made weapon is just a wallhanger to me no matter how superficially it might looks historical.

Again, I'm really happy with mine.

Being of Indian origin the handle being of some species of local rosewood is a high probability, although identifying woods species by just looks can be a hit or miss thing with some species resembling each other and some woods traditionally called something they really are not as they don't actually belong to the same species family.

Anyway, sort of getting off topic myself here. Wink Laughing Out Loud

Bottom line I like this Cinquedea for a variety of reasons including being a scary short sword/dagger, and I do tend to like overbuilt within reason. Big Grin

Lots of interesting bargains at Kult of Athena with pre-owned swords or knives, and one can have confidence in the accurate descriptions of the state of the pieces on sale as described by Ryan.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 30 May, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My memory tells me that the wood is teak. This is a 15-year old memory so what do I know? Happy
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 31 May, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
My memory tells me that the wood is teak. This is a 15-year old memory so what do I know? Happy


Teak seems very probable as it's used a great deal in India for reproduction muskets for stocks for one thing.

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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kult of Athena just sold one
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...+Cinquedea

They say its Czech
there was one like it on ebay as well

David L Smith
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Lewis Smith wrote:
Kult of Athena just sold one
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...+Cinquedea

They say its Czech
there was one like it on ebay as well


Yes that would be mine, and if you read earlier posts you will see that I got information from Kult of Athena that they where told its was Czech made by the person who purchased it at a Renfair where they where told the same thing.

Now, Nathan has positively identified it as being made in India as a small production line of around 100 pieces for J.F. Schroeder.

Ryan at KoA did say in an e-mail to me, that he didn't really know who made it and was just repeating what the " seller to him " believed to be true.

( Reading previous posts is usually " useful " before posting, I still appreciate your posting a comment with information you believed to be accurate, but as in the QUOTE below, things are at times mis-identified honestly or otherwise Wink Big Grin Cool ).

Nathan Robinson wrote:
I don't want to add a link to it here and drive traffic to it, but there is a seller right now on the 'net that was once the arms and armour "expert" for the TV show Pawn Stars. On his site is a J.F. Schroeder cinquedea that he's listing as "Victorian" and has a hefty price on it. I've messaged him about it several times but he's apparently not interested in responding to me or updating his listing. I mention this as an indication as to how visually convincing these cinquedeas are to some folks.

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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jun, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
It is an Indian made piece commissioned by a California man named J.F. Schroeder in the late 90s.

I have one, too: http://www.myArmoury.com/dagg_jfs_cinq.html

I once sold them. Yours is one of three variations that were commissioned. The run was very small, probably about 100 pieces overall.


Nathan

What's the weight of your Cinquedea?

Thanks

Danny
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 02 Jun, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan, just an extra question: Do you remember how stout the tang might be ? i'm assuming with the generally good quality control by J.F. Schroeder over the design I tend to think that the tang would be at least as stout as the original period Cinquedeas ?

Period tangs can seem a little flimsy to us at times but the good quality period daggers and swords had to have tangs that where considered strong enough.

Since it's a little " difficult " to know what the tang looks like since I can really take the dagger apart it would be nice to know ?

I assume that you might not remember exact dimensions but you would probably remember what design criteria where asked for as far as tangs where concerned ?

( Note: Edited typo, I meant to write " can't really take the dagger apart " ...... )

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Sun 02 Jun, 2013 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Jun, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Nathan, just an extra question: Do you remember how stout the tang might be ? i'm assuming with the generally good quality control by J.F. Schroeder over the design I tend to think that the tang would be at least as stout as the original period Cinquedeas ?

Period tangs can seem a little flimsy to us at times but the good quality period daggers and swords had to have tangs that where considered strong enough.

Since it's a little " difficult " to know what the tang looks like since I can really take the dagger apart it would be nice to know ?

I assume that you might not remember exact dimensions but you would probably remember what design criteria where asked for as far as tangs where concerned ?


What you see is what I see. I'm sure it's fine. Period cinquedea daggers are quite narrow. Several published photos of blades without hilts show tangs that are downright dainty, in fact. Modern people worry too much about stuff that has no effect on their lives. Happy

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